1994 Fairline Targa: Electrics Confusion

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks Paul - stunningly useful.

There is already a thru-hull hole plugged with an old/crusty wheel for measuring speed (unreliable even when new). My plan was to remove the wheel thing and replace with a thru-hull transducer for depth. Is thru hull any more reliable than an in-hull transducer?

Nothing in it as far as reliability is concerned. If you already have a hole in the hull go for another through hull. For basic sonar the DST-810 is a good choice.

On my RIB I have a Garmain Echomap UHD 6cv paired with a GT24UHD-TM CHIRP transducer. Also fitted the Icom M330GE VHF/DCS radio with internal and external GPS antennae. I also have a handheld Garmin GPSMAP 86S as backup.

The Echomap series are good value if you want a basic system, such as your RIB.

Point about MFD needing its own dedicated power supply from battery noted. So does plugging the NMEA backbone into the MFD provide the backbone with its power, or does the NMEA require its own dedicated source as well?

Both need their own supply, a lot of the MFDs can be connected to 12V or 24V, but the N2K network has to be 12V. My boat is prominently 24V, so almost everything connects directly to that, but the VHF and N2K are powered by a Victron DC-DC charger.

I'll start simple with a basic MFD and transducer - but one that is future proofed and allows me to add AIS, RADAR, engine monitoring toys, at a later date.

In which case you need a GPSMap, not an Echomap, if you go Garmin. The Echomap doesn't support radar.

For clarity, are you saying that if I want AIS, to consider a Garmin VHF or Em-Trak VHF?

If you want AIS definitely go with Em-Trak, they make the AIS for Garmin, Raymarine and a bunch of others, but are less money. You can fit any VHF you want, but if you fit a Garmin one you can initiate a DSC call to a AIS target from the MFD just by tapping the target on the screen.

 

[ClaytonDJ]

I have a Garmin GPSMap 1223xsv. It is touch screen, but i've never had an issue with that, if i did i'd just fir a remote, which, IMO, is usually better that buttons on the MFD because you can fit it where you can easily reach it. I also have radar, AIS, VHF DSC and down scan sonar (plus some other stuff). The radar is very good, if you need it. The AIS is very useful in UK waters, not sure about the Med. The VHF is also Garmin, this allows me to initiate a DSC call with a AIS target by touching it on the screen.

Downscan sonar is good, but if you don't want/need the level of detail (probably don't in the Med) you can just fit a N2K transducer, in which case you can fit an in hull one, save cutting a hole in the hull.

Lots of other stuff you can add, if you want or if you just like toys I have engine data, trim tabs, tank levels, battery and power monitoring etc all on the N2K network. Also have a Reactor 40 autopilot, which utilises the original hydraulic autopilot pump, so i only had to buy the electronics pack.

See my comments above, worth considering a Garmin VHF if you think you might fit AIS. For AIS i would not buy the Garmin one, it's actually made by SRT, the parent company of Em-Trak, but costs more money. I'd fit the Em-Trak one.

No, you cannot power a MFD from N2K, has to have it's own power supply.

Paul - The Garmin website has a deal on (surprise, surprise). It is offering the GPSMAP 1223xsv for £1,550 (reduced from £2,800), and GT15M-IH in hull CHIRP transducer for £139.
Do these appear to be genuine reductions/value for money - or a simple sales pull gimmick?

Does the "in hull" transducer mean you don't need a thru hull aperture - you just stick it to the inside of the fibreglass hull?

 

[petem]

Ref the transducer, on my boat there's an in-hull transducer and a separate paddlewheel for speed and water temp. The transducer is mounted at the bottom of the hull whereas the the paddlewheel is mounted further up.

Could the paddlewheel hole be used for a transducer (it's at more of an angle than the original in-hull transducer)?

 

[petem]

Does the "in hull" transducer mean you don't need a thru hull aperture - you just stick it to the inside of the fibreglass hull?

Yes, see my post above (in fact I'm a little surprised that your boat doesn't already have an in-hull transducer).

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul - The Garmin website has a deal on (surprise, surprise). It is offering the GPSMAP 1223xsv for £1,550 (reduced from £2,800), and GT15M-IH in hull CHIRP transducer for £139.
Do these appear to be genuine reductions/value for money - or a simple sales pull gimmick?

I don't think anyone ever sells marine electronics for RRP

But, Just checked with my supplier, that's a very good price for the 1223, they've been close to £2500 recently (some sellers still offering them for that). I have a 1223 and a 923 on the flybridge, for that money i'm tempted to swap the 923 for a second 1223 ( could do a 1223 for £1500).

Does the "in hull" transducer mean you don't need a thru hull aperture - you just stick it to the inside of the fibreglass hull?

"In hull" means stuck inside the hull, no hole. "Through hull" needs a hole, so yes.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Ref the transducer, on my boat there's an in-hull transducer and a separate paddlewheel for speed and water temp. The transducer is mounted at the bottom of the hull whereas the the paddlewheel is mounted further up.

Could the paddlewheel hole be used for a transducer (it's at more of an angle than the original in-hull transducer)?

Ideally you want the transducer pointing straight down (obviously), but a small angle is common, giving a slightly inaccurate depth reading, but usually more than close enough.

For steeper deadrise angles, the one mentioned in post #83 can be adjusted to cancel the deadrise. Also, if it's a through hull using the typical 2" diameter hole there are versions for some transducers where the element inside of the body is tilted to cancel deadrise.

 

[ClaytonDJ]

Yes, see my post above (in fact I'm a little surprised that your boat doesn't already have an in-hull transducer).

Pete - good thought. Not something I've looked for - the thru hull (paddlewheel) is clearly visible on the starboard side of the hull in the engine bay - but I've not looked for a separate in-hull transducer somewhere on the bottom of the hull.
If it's as good as the nav units - it'll be ready for the bin I suspect.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Pete - god thought. Not something I've liked for - the thru hull (paddlewheel) is clearly visible on the starboard side of the hull in the engine bay - but I've not looked for a separate in-hull transducer somewhere on the bottom of the hull.
If it's as good as the nav units - it'll be ready for the bin I suspect.

Not sure it would be common to find 2 transducers such as Pets setup ?

The paddle wheel that you have could be just a paddle wheel, or a paddle wheel/depth or a paddle wheel/depth/speed.. What display do you have for depth/STW/temp ?

 

[ClaytonDJ]

I don't think anyone ever sells marine electronics for RRP

But, Just checked with my supplier, that's a very good price for the 1223, they've been close to £2500 recently (some sellers still offering them for that). I have a 1223 and a 923 on the flybridge, for that money i'm tempted to swap the 923 for a second 1223 ( could do a 1223 for £1500).

"In hull" means stuck inside the hull, no hole. "Through hull" needs a hole, so yes

Google shows that there are a few suppliers offering the 123xsv for around the £1500 mark - so the Garmin deal isn't the only one in town.

In hull v thru hull - fully understood. I need to look see if I've already got an in-hull transducer stuck to the bottom of the hull.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Google shows that there are a few suppliers offering the 123xsv for around the £1500 mark - so the Garmin deal isn't the only one in town.

It never is the only one in town. They typically come out with an offer, either a reduced price or a bundle, which they put on their website but also do an offer for trade buyers too, so everyone is knocking them out.

The price usually goes back up after a while. If you're a seller with lots of stock, you're in the shit, you're sitting there with a shelf full of products that are now selling for less than you paid for yours. On the other hand, some of the big sellers will buy up a load of stock at the offer price, sell a few at discount, then when the price goes back up make a tidy profit.

In hull v thru hull - fully understood. I need to look see if I've already got an in-hull transducer stuck to the bottom of the hull.

 

[ClaytonDJ]

Not sure it would be common to find 2 transducers such as Pets setup ?

The paddle wheel that you have could be just a paddle wheel, or a paddle wheel/depth or a paddle wheel/depth/speed.. What display do you have for depth/STW/temp ?

Paul - old photos of the helm (taken by company selling the boat) show it as having a Tridata screen (displaying depth and speed), and ST5000 screen (autopilot?).

 

[ClaytonDJ]

This is the connector block and wiring revealed when the panel on the port side of the radar arch is removed. Top feeds up through the radar arch to power lights, feeds down into bundles leading to switches on the helm.
Some of the lights work (cockpit lights), whilst others (anchor/stern/steaming light) do not (not surprisingly). If I Strat with the lights I know work and switch them on at the helm, I should be able to detect current at the connector block and identify which wires feed what.

Welcome thoughts on retaining but cleaning up the connections, or replacing with identical plastic block or something more robust (but it has to be same depth so that the panel can be replaced).

 

[PaulRainbow]

This is the connector block and wiring revealed when the panel on the port side of the radar arch is removed. Top feeds up through the radar arch to power lights, feeds down into bundles leading to switches on the helm.
Some of the lights work (cockpit lights), whilst others (anchor/stern/steaming light) do not (not surprisingly). If I Strat with the lights I know work and switch them on at the helm, I should be able to detect current at the connector block and identify which wires feed what.

Welcome thoughts on retaining but cleaning up the connections, or replacing with identical plastic block or something more robust (but it has to be same depth so that the panel can be replaced).

Those connectors are amongst the worse things you could fit, you can see why

These are a good solution Inline splicing connector with levers (221-2411) | WAGO GB

You can stick them together in groups with epoxy then stick them in p[lace, or use some of these Mounting carrier with strain relief (221-2505) | WAGO GB

 

[petem]

According to my manual (and I believe Fairline followed the same convention for years) wire colours are as follows:

Br-Wh = Cockpit lights
Yl = Nav and Steam Lights
Rd-Wh = Anchor

It's very likely that corroded lamp holders are the issue.

 

[petem]

Those connectors are amongst the worse things you could fit, you can see why

They've lasted 36 years and I bet most of them are still working now!

But I agree, WAGO's are better.

 

[ClaytonDJ]

According to my manual (and I believe Fairline followed the same convention for years) wire colours are as follows:

Br-Wh = Cockpit lights
Yl = Nav and Steam Lights
Rd-Wh = Anchor

It's very likely that corroded lamp holders are the issue.

Thanks Pete - this is really helpful. I don't suppose you'd be wiling to send me a photo of the manual page detailing this?

Query - when you say Nav and Steam Lights - do you mean the port and starboard (red and green) side lights AND the steaming lights? Are these wired so that they always come on together? Reason I ask is that the port and starboard side lights are working but not the steaming light. I have cleaned the lamp holders and connections on the sidelights - so you may be right about the lamp holders on the steaming lights. There is more than one yellow wire feeding into the connection block (one with a visible loopback) so helpful to determine which is for the sidelights, and which is for the steaming light. Acknowledge that the anchor light is wired is wired separately (since only this would be lit if anchored at night).

 

[ClaytonDJ]

Those connectors are amongst the worse things you could fit, you can see why

These are a good solution Inline splicing connector with levers (221-2411) | WAGO GB

You can stick them together in groups with epoxy then stick them in p[lace, or use some of these Mounting carrier with strain relief (221-2505) | WAGO GB

Thanks Paul - I'll have a look at the WAGO connectors. Assuming they will fit inside the panel and allow it to close flush, I'll look to replace the plastic connection block when I'm next at the boat.

 

[petem]

Thanks Pete - this is really helpful. I don't suppose you'd be wiling to send me a photo of the manual page detailing this?

Query - when you say Nav and Steam Lights - do you mean the port and starboard (red and green) side lights AND the steaming lights? Are these wired so that they always come on together? Reason I ask is that the port and starboard side lights are working but not the steaming light. I have cleaned the lamp holders and connections on the sidelights - so you may be right about the lamp holders on the steaming lights. There is more than one yellow wire feeding into the connection block (one with a visible loopback) so helpful to determine which is for the sidelights, and which is for the steaming light. Acknowledge that the anchor light is wired is wired separately (since only this would be lit if anchored at night).

My Targa is configured as follows:

There's an on/off/on switch for nav and anchor lights at the helm.

One 'on' position switches on the port and starboard nav lights plus the two 180 degrees steaming lights on the radar arch. It also switches on the dashboard lights.

The other 'on' position switches on the anchor light.

So you can't have the nav and anchor light on at the same time.

Your boat may be wired differently.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks Paul - I'll have a look at the WAGO connectors. Assuming they will fit inside the panel and allow it to close flush, I'll look to replace the plastic connection block when I'm next at the boat.

I think you'll find the Wagos are lower profile than the choc block connectors, not sure how much the mounting plates add, i just stick them down with some rapid epoxy (Araldite or similar).

 

[ClaytonDJ]

My Targa is configured as follows:

There's an on/off/on switch for nav and anchor lights at the helm.

One 'on' position switches on the port and starboard nav lights plus the two 180 degrees steaming lights on the radar arch. It also switches on the dashboard lights.

The other 'on' position switches on the anchor light.

So you can't have the nav and anchor light on at the same time.

Your boat may be wired differently.

Thanks Pete
Configuration understood.
The helm on my Targa has hand-written paper labels with images and text written on them so still working through what's what. Established that the far left is the cockpit lights - is engraved on the switch iteslf.
Moving left to right the next 2 switches have lights engraved on the switches and labels which say 'Nav' and 'Moor'. I am interpreting the 'nav' switch will operate the aspect lights (sidelights, stern light and masthead light), and the 'Moor' will switch on th anchor light.
The switch on the far right marked 'Vent' operates the blower in the engine bay.
The 2 rocker switches have a label label above one of them (but not able to decipher) so open to suggestions, and the switch in the middle has no label nor markings on it (so open to suggestions on this one too).
The whole panel needs to be replaced and the switches renewed (once I establish what they operate and all are working)