150% genoa - should I go smaller?

[fredrussell]

Boat is a Super Seal 26. It’s of that age when big overlapping headsails were the thing. Will downsizing to a 100% sail reduce my speed a lot in light to medium airs? Lifting keel so boat is a bit tender and have been thinking lately that a smaller headsail would need to be furled less and obviously less work when tacking. In winds up to, say, 15 kts, is a 150% headsail actually the better up wind sail?

 

[lpdsn]

You'll lose out on light airs sailing. Reason a lot of IRC boats go for smaller headsails is that the rule punishes the larger gennies, so the boat is a bit slower but gains a better rating. A few years ago it was said that the break even point was about 10 Kts of wind (under handicap). Remember though that a modern IRC boat doesn't have a titchy main like the old IOR influenced boats.

Of course you're not racing (I assume) but these things do influence cruising boats.

You will gain when furling. My headsail is about 110% (max that will fit the tracks) and I'd bet it furls better than yours. Tacking will also be easier.

Going to 100% seems an excessive cut. Maybe think about 120% to gain some of the advantages of the smaller sail without losing too many of the advantages of the larger one. And definitely talk to the sailmaker about the pros and cons.

 

[Gin]

Boat is a Super Seal 26. It’s of that age when big overlapping headsails were the thing. Will downsizing to a 100% sail reduce my speed a lot in light to medium airs? Lifting keel so boat is a bit tender and have been thinking lately that a smaller headsail would need to be furled less and obviously less work when tacking. In winds up to, say, 15 kts, is a 150% headsail actually the better up wind sail?

I commissioned a 145% genoa for my deep fin Sadler 26- it was exhausting to short tack with all that cloth and on balance I felt I had overcooked it by getting the largest that Kemp Sails could fit (no complaint about the sail/loft- just me being over eager).
So,as I had a nice lightly used North sail of about 130%, I had this reduced to 120% and this was so much easier to use short-handed and with crew AND I felt that it was good choice with little noticeable drop in maximum speed.

I never used the 145% again

 

[Hydrozoan]

... Going to 100% seems an excessive cut. Maybe think about 120% to gain some of the advantages of the smaller sail without losing too many of the advantages of the larger one. And definitely talk to the sailmaker about the pros and cons.

+1

 

[doug748]

I agree with the above, to go down to 100% would negate some of the advantages of the rig. You have a lively boat there and, for cruising purposes, a little less reefing and a smoother ride are worth having.
Whilst you are at it a higher clew would aid forward vision so is worth thinking about.

 

[Pete7]

The problem I find with our 142% Genoa is in light winds it just hangs down due to the weight of the cloth and particularly with the sun strip on the leach. The cloth is heavy because the sail maker has tried to make one sail fit all including being reefed in 30 knots and of course it is a compromise. Next Genoa will be smaller in the 110 - 120% range. If the sail is tall and narrow it may well hold a better shape in light winds negating any loss of sail area.

 

[neil_s]

I bought a 100% high cut head sail to use for harbour sailing on my Seal 28 some years ago. It's been a great success - the 130% genoa has been in it's bag ever since!

 

[savageseadog]

Battened non overlapping blade type sails are best IMO

 

[Quandary]

Battened non overlapping blade type sails are best IMO

Surely it depends on the boat, our 21st century Finngulf with fractional rig and big fully battened main could make great progress with a 110% vertically battened genny, our wee 1990s Moody has a masthead rig, a short boom and small mainsail, so its big overlapping genoa is needed to compensate.

 

[johnalison]

The decision depends a little upon what quality of sail you get. A really good foresail, say laminate with padded luff, will keep its shape when furled to quite an extent, and would lean me towards the larger end of the size scale. It depends how much you want to pay.

 

[fredrussell]

Thanks for answers folks, useful as ever. I picked the 100% figure out of the air to be honest. I probably should have just said “a fair bit smaller”. I do have a less than 100% jib sail and a great boon it is in a blow, but the nuisance factor of swapping over headsails in a force 6 often deters me from doing so.

 

[RupertW]

I made the choice to move down for a 100% high cut, heavier cloth, padded luff roller foresail 5 years ago. The robustness of the sail and it's shape has meant that 5 years on it still has a great shape and drive in moderate conditions and above. The asymmetric that I bought at the same same to complement the downsized genoa means that I have more speed and more fun downwind to reaching in light to moderate winds, which is great and I've had to get used to hoisting and snuffing so now it's not a bother even if I'm the only person on watch.

But every time it's time for an upwind sail in light winds I groan a little. Unless there is 10 knots real wind, translating to at least 13 knots over the deck then I'm stuck with speeds under 3 knots which is a bit poor for a 12.5m masthead boat in calm water. I can, and will, improve on that by changing from a 3 bladed fixed prop but the motor is on far too often.

I'm not sure what the ideal would be but I will go a bit bigger when I eventually change sails again, keep it high cut and heavy cloth but maybe go up to 110 or 120 percent and if short tacking is ever bothersome then roll it in a little to make it like my current one.

 

[ianat182]

When i had my Westerly Tiger i too struggled to use the 150% Genoa that came with the boat; I took it to my local sailmaker for his opinion on reducing it. He ended up reducing to a 120% area but at the full height of the original giving an appearance of a 'blade' . The sail has been in use constantly in all wind strengths without any problems and far from losing windward ability I believe it improved that performance area. I had to alter the lead angle of the sheets of course. Renewing the UV strip was done at the same time.


ianat182

 

[fredrussell]

Not a bad idea that Ian. I think for the time being I’ll see if I can find something in the region of 110 to 120% second hand just to trial it and see how much of an improvement (or otherwise) it is. My current sails are 10 years old and not over used, as previous owner didn’t sail a great deal.

 

[neil1967]

I had an Offshore 8m with a 150% furling genoa. Going upwind in any thing much above 12-14 kts I had to furl it, which killed the pointing. I replaced it with a 125% or 130% genoa, with a higher cut foot. This was much better upwind and I can't say I noticed a performance loss downwind. Of course it is difficult to compare between an old sail of one size and a new one of another.........

 

[bedouin]

I really don't think putting a 150% Genoa on a roller furler makes much sense. If the sailcloth is heavy enough to survive when reefed to say 100% it will be too heavy to set well in light airs when you need the additional area.

If you want 150% then you really need a dedicated lightweight sail.

I have a similar IOR rig and now use something like 110-120% on the furler. If I want to go faster in light winds I have a gennaker and asymmetric (and an engine )

 

[[2574]]

I think I read an article by Tom Cunliffe where he argued that 150% genoas are suitable for the Mediterranean but not the English Channel and suchlike. We converted our boat to a slutter and we have a high cut jib on the inner forestay and a 150% genial on the outer. We rarely use the genoa when sailing in the UK, I’m now thinking that we should reduce the genoa to a 130% high cut sail, especially as we have a taller than average mast. Not least to reduce weight aloft, our boat is quite tender, we’ve our first reef in below 15 knot, so a smaller sail and less weight aloft will enable us to carry more sail. Well that’s the thinking anyway.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

I had a 150% deck sweeping genoa on my Nic 26 when I bought her. The problems I found as a single-hander were as follows:-

1) Visibility reduced to nil over a large arc. Constant need to dive down to leeward to peek under the genny to see who, or what, I might hit.

2) The need to reef early, resulting in a somewhat baggy inefficient headsail shape. Because the Genoa ‘cars’ are of the ‘lift the stopper and slide along the track’ variety it was impossible to maintain even foot and leach tension when reefing.

3) When rolled away the furling drum had way to much rope on it and sometimes jammed.

4) It was good in light airs.

I had my sailmaker make a high cut Genoa of about 110%’ benefits are:-

1) I can see where I’m going.

2) Unless I’m being very picky I don’t really need to adjust the track at all.

3) The boat is better balanced, making it easier for the auto helm and windvane gear.

4) Reefed, the boat points far better than before, with less heel.

5) For light airs I have an asymmetric.

 

[fredrussell]

Right PHB, you and all the other respondents have all convinced me. I will start the search for a 110 or 120 sail. Have to be 2nd hand initially - but will start saving up for a new one. Thanks all.