££

[steve yates]

From my perspective as one who has looked at this, but not yet done it, there are two main options routes.
If you are young ( sub 30) ) then you can just go, as you can always start again when it finally palls or doesnt work out. If you are middle aged/just retired, then you need income/savings and a land based property to be able to return to.

Trickier for those in their 30’s/40’s, though. Most will be stuck with children anyway.
They are of an age with maturity and parience enough to go amd last a long time, having done a long enough stint in the ratrace to really embrace the different lifestyle. But still young enough to be mortgaged, so selling doesnt give enough to clear debt, provide a savings cushion and buy a smaller property, yet old enough that when they finally come back ashore their jb skills are far out of date and they will really struggle to find any work, yet any pension due will still be a good way off, prob need to ne 70 by then to claim one!

 

[nortada]

A very interesting thread with a number of good Liveaboard friends (past and present) giving loads of accurate, good advice.

Truth is, it is horses for courses or how long is a piece of string

As time as a Liveaboard increases aspirations change. Many sail off to escape their current situation/circumstances. Often they plan to ‘cruise the world’ with only a very sketchy plan. With experience and reality they can hone their plans or they give up and return home. Others find a new Valhalla and start a new life, initially afloat but then later, they buy ashore and still later swallow the anchor.

Ageing and changing health can be other important factors. As can a change in financial status (inheritance, more pensions kicking in).

Any combination of the above makes living aboard a very personal adventure. On balance, very few end their days as cruising Liveaboards.

So what is our story.

We have been liveaboards, in various degrees, for the past 22 years. After a long military career and subsequently as commercial sailing skippers, we left to became liveaboards, aged 57. We left behind a mortgage free house, which we rented out. At this point we could live off our pensions and the rent from the house. We spent a year, cruising Northern Europe before family bereavement forced us to winter on board in Plymouth. It was cold and wet but we enjoyed it to the point that it convinced us long-term cruising was for us.

The next spring we set off and took all summer cruising to Portugal. The next 5 years we lived on board almost continuously, cruising, Europe, the Med and North Africa. Watching the ARCs come and go, we gradually realised that we had no desire for longer range cruising. As the years passed we settled into a routine of winters cruising in Southern Europe, summers in a static caravan on the East Coast and holidays ashore in Cyprus, Malta, Greece, Africa etc. We quickly realised that the rented house back home was an increasing liability so we sold at the top of the market and invested the money at 6% interest. Until interest rates crashed this arrangement more than funded our Liveaboard lifestyle.

As the years rolled by age and increasing infirmity took their toll - more time in marinas and less time cruising. The changing political backdrop also had impact. Brexit was not a big thing for us, we were Portuguese residents and we lived on board continuously during Covid but this was a wake-up call. Longterm life afloat was increasingly not viable. We had 2 option; buy in Portugal and see our days out there, or relocate to Blighty - we choose the latter.

This proved providential as shorty after we returned the other half have a significant accident, which for the time-being, has put pay to any waterborne activities. Hopefully, in the future, she will make a good recovery and return afloat, albeit not under sail but on our 10m twin diesel power cruiser - hopefully we will once again become part time summer liveaboards. Time will tell.

I hesitate to offer any advice but I would say always keep a presence in the UK, ensure as far as you can, your longterm income matches or exceeds you lifestyle or adjust your life style accordingly. Throughout our adventure our annual expenditure never exceeded our income. Do not expect to find gainful employment abroad, it could dramatically change your status in your host country (not for the better). Be flexible and realise ageing will modify your ambitions.

Know but don’t break the local laws and be very circumspect about what you divulge, you will have more room to manoeuvre in future situations should they arise.

Finally, recognise when the time to quit being a liveboard has arrived and have an escape plan.

We are now enjoying life after Liveaboard with it’s more comfortably way of living.

Best of luck to all liveaboards - times are getting increasingly more difficult.

ps Edited to remove the wine stains and the more glaring errors.?

 

[AndrewB]

Do not expect to find gainful employment abroad, it could dramatically change your status in your host country (not for the better). Be flexible and realise ageing will modify your ambitions.

When we first went, I'd hoped we could supplement our income with boaty skills - me on mechanics, SWMBO on sail/canvas repairs. Never got more than pin money. The liveaboard culture is, or was, very much one of mutual help and money didn't really come into it. Try offering that sort of service to local boats, and you soon came up against local workers. Back in the day Moitessier seemed to find work easy enough to find in boatyards, not us though.

Likewise writing and busking - we tried both - pin money only. Forget chartering your own yacht, unless you are a Skip Novak!

Casual seasonal work is easier, in particular in restaurants and bars, where it may be possible to work 'under the counter' without coming to the attention of the authorities. One guy we met who was a chef seemed to be welcomed with open arms wherever he went. Nursing was another skill in hot demand and a couple we met seemed to have no difficulty getting temporary work permits in various countries. But in general, only people under about 35 got work locally.

The best bet though, which sustained many liveaboards, was to keep their hand in with their former employment where work could be done remotely. That started to be possible about 20 years ago with the communications revolution. I did it for a few years: however, it inevitably meant returning to England periodically, and that became the biggest single item in our annual budget.

Has anyone else here similar experiences?

 

[grumpygit]

These days of "Living the Dream" is a pipe dream, it has again become quite a rich mans playground again. I've met all sorts of people trying to scrape a few quid extra to subsidise their sailing but in doing so they drive themselves into the bilges by not living properly and I'm sure nobody comes out to live on a bread line. With us now being a third country is a big problem to the freedom most of us have being used to, all this incurs so many extra costs and levy's .
I will stick my neck in saying that I very much doubt that one can have a fair standard of life/living for under 15k p.a. plus 50% for a second person, and imo this is an optimistic view. This does not include a fair kitty for boat maintenance/breakages and disasters.
Lastly the world is changing, the whole sailing world revolves around big cats and big beam mono's with big pax with loads of disposable income so little ole you is totally irrelevant .

 

[sailaboutvic]

@ grumpygit
I don't thinks you far off with ur sum.

We did in the early days tried to keep records but very quickly given in ,
It started to get depressing when we was no where near our budget each month ,
then to top that up some thing would break or needed replacing,
In the end we decided when the bank account had a hole we couldn't replace we stop.
As you and many others know we still at it.( Just) although it's looking more like we be part time cruiser from next year now we back in Northern Europe
and let me just say ,another thinking about living on a boat in Northern Europe DONT , it's no fun even for hardened cruisers as us .
Is not just cold and the winter as not set in yet,
Damp inside the boat drops everywhere , no matter how much you try , you just can't stop mold, your clothes smell mustardly .
You end up wearing layers to go to bed and your woken up by drips landing on your face ,
I'm not joking .

 

[BobnLesley]

The best bet though, which sustained many liveaboards, was to keep their hand in with their former employment...

Has anyone else here similar experiences?

When we went cruising it was 'for a couple of years or until we run out of money' but at the end of our first year we unexpectedly found ourselves in London. I got bored or at least needed to find a distraction to the marina's drinking culture so took a freelance job. I discovered that while I no longer got the bells and whistles of a permanent/salaried position, working 4-5 months on an hourly rate under self-employed tax rules put almost as much cash into the bank as my working full time had. We spent eight years sailing the Med each summer then laying up the boat and flying home each winter, renting a house/flat wherever I picked up a contract. I'll concede that I was fortunate in having a skill set which people were prepared to pay well for, most especially if they could get me in just for a few months; knowing that I would be finished and heading back to sea in March/April well suited them too.

 

[Stingo]

There was a Seth Efrican couple that thought they'd easily find work in the boatyards of Chageramus, Trinidad. The local workers notified immigration of the new work-seeking competiton. Exit papers were swiftly issued by immigration. Nigel and Mrs Nigel headed for Grenada, where much to their surprise, entry was refused on the grounds of them having a track record of trying to work illegally in Trinidad. Nigel suspects that the Trini immigration notified their counterparts in Grenada. So off they sailed, with only two rolls of toilet paper, kindly donated for the exclusive use of Mrs Nigel by DaGringoOnStingo. The two rolls lasted until they arrived in Saint Maarten, which took them several days, non-stop, except for over night anchoring.
Guess how long it took him to find work and for her to jump ship?

EDIT: The Crabby-Ian is full of very similar tales of woe

 

[billskip]

As running away is easy,staying away is the hard bit, as stingo says above it's not easy.
When I upped sticks and left, thinking "I'll survive " back in late 90's, there wasn't information as easy available like the above.
However I have survived and enjoyed it, but it's not easy at times.
Everybody has different standards how they are prepared to live, I found people living on 25ft boats very happy.
Trouble is trying to help with advice is that you can only reflect on how it was for yourself, which could be better or worse than what is acceptable to others.
Good advice in many above posts, but also advice from many that have secure boltholes and finance.

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[srm]

Damp inside the boat drops everywhere , no matter how much you try , you just can't stop mold, your clothes smell mustardly .
You end up wearing layers to go to bed and your woken up by drips landing on your face ,

My wintering experiences were limited to no further north than 60 N. living in a steel boat, though my cruising range did extend above the arctic circle. The only condensation was on windows. No mold anywhere and comfortable sleeping in t-shirt. Set two alarms for mornings. Turned on the hot air heating with first alarm and got up half an hour later to a warm boat, even with ice on the deck.

Its quite simple, if you are going to live aboard insulate all of the inside to below the waterline, so that only the bilges are uninsulated. This will keep you warm and dry in the winter and cool in the summer.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My wintering experiences were limited to no further north than 60 N. living in a steel boat, though my cruising range did extend above the arctic circle. The only condensation was on windows. No mold anywhere and comfortable sleeping in t-shirt. Set two alarms for mornings. Turned on the hot air heating with first alarm and got up half an hour later to a warm boat, even with ice on the deck.

Its quite simple, if you are going to live aboard insulate all of the inside to below the waterline, so that only the bilges are uninsulated. This will keep you warm and dry in the winter and cool in the summer.

I doubt if our benetuea is any where as insulated a steel boat , steel boat tend to be very insulated anyway.
And to be honest with production boat I think you have quite a job other then maybe throw a tent over the whole lot to use as a barrier .

We cruising in the Netherlands and it's been 25/75 between marinas and anchoring .
We get up some morning and the seats are damp from the drips from Windows so much that now we throw covers over them ,
you can soak up a towel wiping just above where we sleep.
The front berth which are not used just storage,
if we don't keep on top of it there be mold starting to grow in no time.
Any clothes you pick up feel damp and if left with out airing will also get moulded and smelly.
There is a hot air heater on board but it doesn't seem to do much and we only in November with temp only down to 5c
I hate to think what's it be like once the winter really set in and it's -5 ,
lucky for us we won't be on board for most of the winter.
I agree a good insulated boat the answer and helps to make life more comfortable.
The last 13 years as full time cruises we never felt anywhere as uncomfortable living on a boat and we have had temp down to 1c at time but it's dryer air then in northern Europe,
Plus our Moody was probably a lot more insulated

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I doubt if our benetuea is any where as insulated a steel boat , steel boat tend to be very insulated anyway.
And to be honest with production boat I think you have quite a job other then maybe throw a tent over the whole lot to use as a barrier .

We cruising in the Netherlands and it's been 25/75 between marinas and anchoring .
We get up some morning and the seats are damp from the drips from Windows so much that now we throw covers over them ,
you can soak up a towel wiping just above where we sleep.
The front berth which are not used just storage,
if we don't keep on top of it there be mold starting to grow in no time.
Any clothes you pick up feel damp and if left with out airing will also get moulded and smelly.
There is a hot air heater on board but it doesn't seem to do much and we only in November with temp only down to 5c
I hate to think what's it be like once the winter really set in and it's -5 ,
lucky for us we won't be on board for most of the winter.
I agree a good insulated boat the answer and helps to make life more comfortable.
The last 13 years as full time cruises we never felt anywhere as uncomfortable living on a boat and we have had temp down to 1c at time but it's dryer air then in northern Europe,
Plus our Moody was probably a lot more insulated

Hi Vic
You should have stayed in Greece ,this is my third winter here as you know. I pay €6 a day here in Nafpilio for a 14 m boat+ €15 for 3000 liters of water . It costs me about €22 a day max for food and wine . Temperature yesterday was mid twenties, however it rained in the night and the forcast is about 22c max next week
It's comfortable on €30 a day, really.
Okay I bought a petrol generator, new fishing rods and an Air fryer. Oh! and a mountain bike,but, I didn't need to buy them just wanted to spend a bit you know the feeling,
I also go to a good taverna twice a week .
A good meal and litre of wine usually cost me € 15 cash, local price.?€ 20 if I take a friend.
All the best

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Vic
You should have stayed in Greece ,this is my third winter here as you know. I pay €6 a day here in Nafpilio for a 14 m boat+ €15 for 3000 liters of water . It costs me about €22 a day max for food and wine . Temperature yesterday was mid twenties, however it rained in the night and the forcast is about 22c max next week
It's comfortable on €30 a day, really.
Okay I bought a petrol generator, new fishing rods and an Air fryer ,but, I didn't need to buy them just wanted to spend a bit you know the feeling,
I also go to a good taverna twice a week .
A good meal and litre of wine usually cost me € 15 cash, local price.?€ 20 if I take a friend.
All the best

Hi Bob
I think our Med days are over mate although never say never .
We at a stage in our lives for several reason which I'm not going to go into here that probably from next year. Cruise for 7 months then have winter months on land and after 35 years cruising mostly southern Europe we like to see some of northern Europe, probably Denmark next year we just had 6 months in the Netherlands and loved it , the summer suprise was as hot as we had it in the Med .
Best of luck mate ,
miss you and the others friends we left behind.
Although we not short of offers to join friends .

 

[syvictoria]

I think many of the discrepancies in weekly food bills quoted here come from whether or not alcohol (cheap/local or otherwise - it all adds up) is included/excluded. Apples are being compared with pears. As for Sailing Wildings, they often only visit a supermarket every 2-3 weeks which might very well explain the apparent disparity between the trolley picture and the average weekly shopping figure. If you're going to keep food bills down whilst on the move, you need to have sufficient stock and cooking ability to be able to avoid the Albert Heijns of this world, although any AH of a decent size almost inevitably seems to be accompanied by an Aldi within 1/4 mile (or even sharing the same building!) in my experience.

As for living on lentils every day, if it becomes a choice between that and the 9-5 grind, well, personally, I'd say that there's no choice!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I bet if you had to live on lentils you soon be sick of them .
We been living on home made soup and stews for the last week or so, nothing to do with can't afford food more to keep warm,
I can tell you if I don't see a stew or soup for another year it be a year too soon
Enclosed just a very small shopping bill for some odd bits .€26.67

 

[Kelpie]

From my perspective as one who has looked at this, but not yet done it, there are two main options routes.
If you are young ( sub 30) ) then you can just go, as you can always start again when it finally palls or doesnt work out. If you are middle aged/just retired, then you need income/savings and a land based property to be able to return to.

Trickier for those in their 30’s/40’s, though. Most will be stuck with children anyway.
They are of an age with maturity and parience enough to go amd last a long time, having done a long enough stint in the ratrace to really embrace the different lifestyle. But still young enough to be mortgaged, so selling doesnt give enough to clear debt, provide a savings cushion and buy a smaller property, yet old enough that when they finally come back ashore their jb skills are far out of date and they will really struggle to find any work, yet any pension due will still be a good way off, prob need to ne 70 by then to claim one!

This is a good observation.
And on this forum the older group are much more strongly represented.

On our travels we have only met a very small number of the carefree young cruisers in small boats. All seemed very happy. None plan to do it for more than two or three years. Of course if you are a digital nomad, or a 'tuber, you can keep going indefinitely.

We made the decision to go full time liveaboard when we were in our late 20s. At which point we had just bought a house and had no spare money. We spent the next ten years getting in to a position where we had only a small personal loan left, with property to rent out on the holiday market, and a larger more suitable boat. A kid appeared too. But despite only having fairly mediocre jobs we made it work.

I don't know exactly how much we spend now. As little as possible, really. It's extremely rare for us to eat out, mostly because we enjoy cooking, and eating out trends to be slow and frustrating which is incompatible with having a small child in tow. We spent five months at anchor this summer, because we could not afford the marinas in the Balearics. There's no point in trips home since the house is rented out and where we live is pretty remote, and having sold the car is not really viable to spend time there.

Food costs about the same as back home, in fact usually less, especially alcohol. We're not big drinkers but €2 on a bottle of wine instead of £6 is noticeable.

We spend far less on fuel than we did running two cars.

Easily the single biggest cost is boat maintenance, upgrades, and repairs. We must have spent over £5k this year- replacement inverter and autopilot, upgraded liferaft, plus miscellaneous smaller items.

If you are willing to run the boat in to the ground then you could limp along spending very little. I don't think that would be much fun though.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is a good observation.
And on this forum the older group are much more strongly represented.

On our travels we have only met a very small number of the carefree young cruisers in small boats. All seemed very happy. None plan to do it for more than two or three years. Of course if you are a digital nomad, or a 'tuber, you can keep going indefinitely.

We made the decision to go full time liveaboard when we were in our late 20s. At which point we had just bought a house and had no spare money. We spent the next ten years getting in to a position where we had only a small personal loan left, with property to rent out on the holiday market, and a larger more suitable boat. A kid appeared too. But despite only having fairly mediocre jobs we made it work.

I don't know exactly how much we spend now. As little as possible, really. It's extremely rare for us to eat out, mostly because we enjoy cooking, and eating out trends to be slow and frustrating which is incompatible with having a small child in tow. We spent five months at anchor this summer, because we could not afford the marinas in the Balearics. There's no point in trips home since the house is rented out and where we live is pretty remote, and having sold the car is not really viable to spend time there.

Food costs about the same as back home, in fact usually less, especially alcohol. We're not big drinkers but €2 on a bottle of wine instead of £6 is noticeable.

We spend far less on fuel than we did running two cars.

Easily the single biggest cost is boat maintenance, upgrades, and repairs. We must have spent over £5k this year- replacement inverter and autopilot, upgraded liferaft, plus miscellaneous smaller items.

If you are willing to run the boat in to the ground then you could limp along spending very little. I don't think that would be much fun though.

This is the thing with working out how much you need to go cruising,
You never know what's going to break next and what expensive will be added .
As you said 5k on things you didn't plain for to happen in your first year and I do hope for your sake the unexpected stop happen at less for some time .
What spend on food is not here or there , is everything else .
We actually know a couple who did everything they could to make sure they boat was ready for cruising within six months they engine given up bad enough the 6.5k for the engine and installation but their was paying €45 a night while a new engine was brought in and replaced 720 euros in marina fees .
You could say they where unlucky .
Or you could say that's the nature of boats especially once that are used 24/7 .

Oh as for the older group here , just to say when I just started cruising I was known by other cruisers as the boy , here comes the boy
Enjoy while you can , your not young for ever .

 

[srm]

@sailaboutvic
Modern mass produced boats are not designed for long term living aboard as they have no effective insulation and usually no weather proof ventilation either. Something that is often missed when buying a boat for long term cruising. My current fibreglass boat was given a custom interior and rig for long term cruising /living aboard, starting with insulating the structure down to the bilges.

As you said: "a good insulated boat the answer and helps to make life more comfortable". During a summer here the owner of a standard production boat was complaining that it was too hot inside during the day. Our boat was comfortable as the interior temperature was no more than the ambient air temp.

 

[Kelpie]

This is the thing with working out how much you need to go cruising,
You never know what's going to break next and what expensive will be added .
As you said 5k on things you didn't plain for to happen in your first year and I do hope for your sake the unexpected stop happen at less for some time .
What spend on food is not here or there , is everything else .
We actually know a couple who did everything they could to make sure they boat was ready for cruising within six months they engine given up bad enough the 6.5k for the engine and installation but their was paying €45 a night while a new engine was brought in and replaced 720 euros in marina fees .
You could say they where unlucky .
Or you could say that's the nature of boats especially once that are used 24/7 .

Oh as for the older group here , just to say when I just started cruising I was known by other cruisers as the boy , here comes the boy
Enjoy while you can , your not young for ever .

The £5k is pretty unfortunate, but not entirely essential, just the right decisions for us.
A major chunk of it is the upgraded liferaft. We could have carried on using our coastal one. But with a young family aboard that's not the right decision for me.
The new autopilot drive was even more expensive. The old one still worked, and we have a Hydrovane so arguably we didn't need to spend that money. However we are about to embark upon the longest and most difficult passage we have ever done, with a lightly crewed boat, and I consider it money well spent to stack the odds in our favour. Not replacing it now would almost certainly just mean replacing it in the Caribbean, likely at higher cost and inconvenience.
Another big chunk of change went on a new Victron inverter. We could just go back to gas cooking, or we could have tried a cheaper brand. But we're not quite on the breadline and it seemed sensible to future proof the system by buying the best quality.

The standard to which we keep our boats is a personal question. I have met people who spend almost nothing (and often, but not universally don't really go anywhere). And you get people who won't launch their boat until the hull is polished and the latest nav gear is installed- they might not go anywhere either. There's a happy medium to be found in there somewhere.

 

[srm]

and it seemed sensible to future proof the system by buying the best quality.

I have discovered by expensive experience (buy cheap then buy what I should have got first time) that buying the best that I can afford works out cheaper in the long run.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The £5k is pretty unfortunate, but not entirely essential, just the right decisions for us.
A major chunk of it is the upgraded liferaft. We could have carried on using our coastal one. But with a young family aboard that's not the right decision for me.
The new autopilot drive was even more expensive. The old one still worked, and we have a Hydrovane so arguably we didn't need to spend that money. However we are about to embark upon the longest and most difficult passage we have ever done, with a lightly crewed boat, and I consider it money well spent to stack the odds in our favour. Not replacing it now would almost certainly just mean replacing it in the Caribbean, likely at higher cost and inconvenience.
Another big chunk of change went on a new Victron inverter. We could just go back to gas cooking, or we could have tried a cheaper brand. But we're not quite on the breadline and it seemed sensible to future proof the system by buying the best quality.

The standard to which we keep our boats is a personal question. I have met people who spend almost nothing (and often, but not universally don't really go anywhere). And you get people who won't launch their boat until the hull is polished and the latest nav gear is installed- they might not go anywhere either. There's a happy medium to be found in there somewhere.

My two penny's you did the right thing re the pilot and the liferaft as for the inverter my option it helps to make life more happy on board .
We had a 3 kw on the other boat .only a small 500 W on this one and we miss it badly .
Tho I found out the other week the 500 W will work on my electric blanket, that's a turn up for the books.