Westerly Corsair v Conway

[Geoffrey Mills]

I read this thread with interest - spanning it would appear over some 20 years! I note also the comment about the apparent absence of Westerly/Moody/Colvic owners. Well here are some comments from a 25 year owner of a 43 year old Conway. First the question of adequacy of scantlings. I'm a structural engineer and one of the things we are taught is that if a structure has survived quite a few decades and hence been through most design conditions then the structure is proven and we need only look for changes in loading or deterioration of condition. I think it is fair to say that with old boats like the Conway their structure is proven and the weaknesses well know to surveyors. So you know exactly what you are buying. I would always prefer to buy an old house, not recently decorated, for the same reason - I can see what I'm getting. The only structural defects that is commonly reported is the depression of the mast step and that can be dealt with. However, the hull/deck structure represents perhaps a third of the cost of a well-equipped boat and my Conway, probably typically, has required pretty much total renovation to bring her back to as-new condition. It would have been cheaper to have bought a new boat but my wife and I (with different priorities) could not find a new boat that matched our combined preferences as well as the Conway - which was our third boat and so we had time to work out what we wanted. We have been to a number of boat shows and crawled over a range of new boats and decided we prefer ours. Our preference for a ketch knocks out most of the competition; then I prefer a shaft drive with significant prop-wash thus avoiding the need for a bow-thruster; a deep centre cockpit; the issue of the low bridge-deck is dealt with by having a robust and lockable lower washboard; the lower internal volume for her length is for us a worthwhile trade-off for more sea-kindly motion in rougher conditions; the longish keel and well spread out keel bolts is reassuring when we periodically hit bottom (who does not?) ( I would prefer a lead keel); the rudder is well supported; the rig is conventional and generous; the accommodation is British standard with straight settees in the saloon and so suitable for sea-berths with lee cloths (and we have one pilot berth); a deep bilge in which we have second and independent water and fuel tanks and space for triple bilge pumps; I could go on but lets look at some weaknesses (other than the mast-step). In no particular order - the cockpit drain seacocks are accessible to operate below the main fuel tank but could not be changed without removing the tank, internal mouldings limited access to the inside of the hull and necessitated some work to add removable panels; it is a reasonable assumption on a boat of that age that sealants will be failing and so (in my case) all fastenings were remove and re-bedded and in most cases renewed; the main portlights were not opening and replacing them with opening lights involves some surgery as the coach-roof sides have a slight curvature; the emergency tiller operates on the rudder stock in the aft-cabin so the helmsman cannot see to steer - in my case I have a quadrant operated autopilot with two independent control systems; the original gas storage was unsafe and I had to fit a new storage system made with fire retardant resin and a below-deck access panel with intumescent seal; I had to fit holding tanks which did not come with the original; the resin used was susceptible to osmosis and so treatment (and retreatment after maybe a further 20 years) will likely be needed; fitting an electric windlass and a new -generation anchor will need more than minor work - in my case a new bow-roller assembly; the anchor locker is not self draining (the original design had it draining into the bilge) so to avoid a wet bilge mine has been altered to drain into a shower bilge and thus pumped out automatically. - that needs care to keep the chain reasonably clean before stowing; the boom does not have a traveller but is secured to a single mid-point ring (on a long tack I can rig a line from a spinnaker block to bring the boom in closer). I'll stop there but just conclude by saying that anyone who may (still!) be interested in a Conway or other Westerly can get this type of insight and feedback from the thousands of members of the very active Westerly Owners' Association and thus be assured of knowing exactly what they are buying and can expect. However, "each to their own" and I'm not saying a Conway is for you - just that it is for me.

 

[Concerto]

I read this thread with interest - spanning it would appear over some 20 years! I note also the comment about the apparent absence of Westerly/Moody/Colvic owners. Well here are some comments from a 25 year owner of a 43 year old Conway. First the question of adequacy of scantlings. I'm a structural engineer and one of the things we are taught is that if a structure has survived quite a few decades and hence been through most design conditions then the structure is proven and we need only look for changes in loading or deterioration of condition. I think it is fair to say that with old boats like the Conway their structure is proven and the weaknesses well know to surveyors. So you know exactly what you are buying. I would always prefer to buy an old house, not recently decorated, for the same reason - I can see what I'm getting. The only structural defects that is commonly reported is the depression of the mast step and that can be dealt with. However, the hull/deck structure represents perhaps a third of the cost of a well-equipped boat and my Conway, probably typically, has required pretty much total renovation to bring her back to as-new condition. It would have been cheaper to have bought a new boat but my wife and I (with different priorities) could not find a new boat that matched our combined preferences as well as the Conway - which was our third boat and so we had time to work out what we wanted. We have been to a number of boat shows and crawled over a range of new boats and decided we prefer ours. Our preference for a ketch knocks out most of the competition; then I prefer a shaft drive with significant prop-wash thus avoiding the need for a bow-thruster; a deep centre cockpit; the issue of the low bridge-deck is dealt with by having a robust and lockable lower washboard; the lower internal volume for her length is for us a worthwhile trade-off for more sea-kindly motion in rougher conditions; the longish keel and well spread out keel bolts is reassuring when we periodically hit bottom (who does not?) ( I would prefer a lead keel); the rudder is well supported; the rig is conventional and generous; the accommodation is British standard with straight settees in the saloon and so suitable for sea-berths with lee cloths (and we have one pilot berth); a deep bilge in which we have second and independent water and fuel tanks and space for triple bilge pumps; I could go on but lets look at some weaknesses (other than the mast-step). In no particular order - the cockpit drain seacocks are accessible to operate below the main fuel tank but could not be changed without removing the tank, internal mouldings limited access to the inside of the hull and necessitated some work to add removable panels; it is a reasonable assumption on a boat of that age that sealants will be failing and so (in my case) all fastenings were remove and re-bedded and in most cases renewed; the main portlights were not opening and replacing them with opening lights involves some surgery as the coach-roof sides have a slight curvature; the emergency tiller operates on the rudder stock in the aft-cabin so the helmsman cannot see to steer - in my case I have a quadrant operated autopilot with two independent control systems; the original gas storage was unsafe and I had to fit a new storage system made with fire retardant resin and a below-deck access panel with intumescent seal; I had to fit holding tanks which did not come with the original; the resin used was susceptible to osmosis and so treatment (and retreatment after maybe a further 20 years) will likely be needed; fitting an electric windlass and a new -generation anchor will need more than minor work - in my case a new bow-roller assembly; the anchor locker is not self draining (the original design had it draining into the bilge) so to avoid a wet bilge mine has been altered to drain into a shower bilge and thus pumped out automatically. - that needs care to keep the chain reasonably clean before stowing; the boom does not have a traveller but is secured to a single mid-point ring (on a long tack I can rig a line from a spinnaker block to bring the boom in closer). I'll stop there but just conclude by saying that anyone who may (still!) be interested in a Conway or other Westerly can get this type of insight and feedback from the thousands of members of the very active Westerly Owners' Association and thus be assured of knowing exactly what they are buying and can expect. However, "each to their own" and I'm not saying a Conway is for you - just that it is for me.

Welcome to the forum from a Westerly Fulmar owner.

You have posted a fair assessment of owning an older boat. Please be aware if you see posts claiming you should only buy a modern factory built yacht, preferably from Bavaria, that these people have little understanding of the sailing qualities of older craft. One poster who can usually offer some useful advice- except about older boats, especially by Westerly, is former multiple Westerly owner with the handle prv. We have clashed on many occassions and it would be nice to have more people with comments that make the sensible case of extending the life of older craft is wise and an environmentally better solution than creating yet more yachts using the world's scarce resources.

If you are not already aware I am very active in th WOA and have also given a number of Zoom presentations with PowerPoint files. The only one not as a Zoo is about the Renovation of Concerto that was given to a RYA Conference. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf The Zoom presentations are available on the WOA web site, to members only, under Member Services/Other Member Services and there are 3 additional PowerPoint presentations in the Weserly Wiki under Whats New on the Wiki, available to anyone to view. If you want to want a few short sailing videos on YouTube, then start with this one, Concerto under spinnaker

PS I am posting this whilst at the start of the WOA Summer Cruise which unfortunately I can only participate for the first fortnight from Lowestoft to Ramsgate. However, if the WOA is allocated a berth at the Southampton Boat Show, Concerto will be the WOA at the show. By then virtually all the renovations should be complete and Concerto will be very close to a new condition at 41 years old. So come see her and have a chat.

 

[Tranona]

I read this thread with interest - spanning it would appear over some 20 years! I note also the comment about the apparent absence of Westerly/Moody/Colvic owners. Well here are some comments from a 25 year owner of a 43 year old Conway.

Welcome to the forum

A very well balanced assessment. The first half explains why it suits you - but clearly you are in a tiny minority as boats like the Conway have not been built for more than 30 years - and even when they were in build sold in small numbers by today's standards.

Times move on and your list of deficiencies partially explains why many people who have the choice and the money prefer to buy new(er) boats, even though many had bought boats like the Conway and others of the much loved (?) favourites in the past. Why? very simple in the 1970 up to mid 90s that is all you could buy on a modest (by new boat standards) budget. And then -such is progress - better propositions came along and buyers changed priorities and bought boats better suited to their requirements. These boats have lived up to their owners' expectations and there are many here (like me) who can write equally long posts explaining why we bought our boats and the many, many years of good service they have given.

The big, big difference however would be that the list of deficiencies would be much smaller. No osmosis, no hidden drain cocks - in fact most drain through the transom, proper anchoring facilities with draining lockers and windlasses as standard, no collapsing mast steps, no wet bilges (the bilge pump in my last boat died from lack of use), holding tanks standard or easy to retrofit on older boats, accessible emergency tiller. not forgetting big fridges, vastly better electrics and power storage, modern electronics, plenty of opening hatches for ventilation and so on. In 15 years ownership, 10 of them in the Med, none of the sealants on deck fittings needed attention, although most are attached by screws into a bonded in plate. Advances in rigs, sails and sail handling gear remove the benefits of ketch rigs (not that they were actually very popular in their day) and save the cost of a second mast and the space it takes up. Better engines and transmissions plus bow thrusters make boat handling under power and long periods of motoring (key feature for some cruisers) much easier.

It is a myth that modern boats are structurally inferior or that old style boats (like your Conway) are better. You bought your boat at around 20 years old and by your own admission, osmosis is a possibility, or even an inevitability on such a young boat. Look at boats from the late 90's (similar age to when you bought yours) now and you would see exactly the same (except for the lack of osmosis). Proven design and construction with the few model specific weaknesses well known to surveyors. Take my own example a 2001 Bavaria that spent the first 7 years of its life intensively chartered in the Med then sailed back to UK. No structural issues whatsoever, all its original rig and deck gear, engine and domestic electrics apart from the cooker; only significant replacements were new upholstery in the saloon, new sails and windlass When sold in 2015, the new owner spent less than £5k and took it straight back to the Med. You find modern boats sailing all round the world in numbers that dwarf those built by a handful of British boat builders 30-50 years ago. The latter sold in the UK market or a very small subset of the market because that is what was deemed right at the time.

Owners of whatever boat are naturally enthusiastic about their boats, of course they are as they chose it and have so much not just financially invested in it. It seems to me though that some cling on to the past and justify it by disparaging others or rather their choice of boat without actually having the experience of owning, or even sometimes actually sailing other boats. They seem to fail to appreciate that buyers go through exactly the same process of trying to get the best match to their requirements within the budget allocated for the purchase. Some have more money and that gives them greater choice and some are cash limited which limits their choice. So if you only have £25k and want a 36' cruising boat for a couple or a family then a Conway gets on your list. Double that and it is unlikely to get anywhere near your list as a whole host of better and more modern boats come into the frame. Of course for some the "positive" features you outline might still hold an attraction and you might consider spending only £25k on the boat and the same amount on dealing with some of the deficiencies and bringing it up to a similar standard to a boat less than half its age. Downside is that such expenditure does little for the monetary value of the boat so you have to look at long term ownership to justify the expenditure. However, given there were less than 300 built and currently none for sale I would suggest that is not a course many would consider taking.

That really answers the question in your opening sentence. There are few Westerly/Moody/ Colvic owners on this forum (or even on the more popular PBO) simply because, well, they are now only a tiny minority of boat owners. That does not mean that the boats don't fulfil a very useful purpose of providing sound solid cruising boats on a modest budget, particularly for those who like the work associated with keeping them running. However the number in use is falling rapidly as they become uneconomic when a major component such as engine or rig fails and makes the boat unusable. They then haunt ebay (and the back of boat yards) desperately looking for starry eyed buyers who think they can get them running on a shoe string. Some do but the majority get beaten by the work involved, the cost and perhaps more importantly, the cost of storage which is the same essentially whether a boat is used or not.

 

[pvb]

Welcome to the forum

A very well balanced assessment. The first half explains why it suits you - but clearly you are in a tiny minority as boats like the Conway have not been built for more than 30 years - and even when they were in build sold in small numbers by today's standards.

Times move on and your list of deficiencies partially explains why many people who have the choice and the money prefer to buy new(er) boats, even though many had bought boats like the Conway and others of the much loved (?) favourites in the past. Why? very simple in the 1970 up to mid 90s that is all you could buy on a modest (by new boat standards) budget. And then -such is progress - better propositions came along and buyers changed priorities and bought boats better suited to their requirements. These boats have lived up to their owners' expectations and there are many here (like me) who can write equally long posts explaining why we bought our boats and the many, many years of good service they have given.

The big, big difference however would be that the list of deficiencies would be much smaller. No osmosis, no hidden drain cocks - in fact most drain through the transom, proper anchoring facilities with draining lockers and windlasses as standard, no collapsing mast steps, no wet bilges (the bilge pump in my last boat died from lack of use), holding tanks standard or easy to retrofit on older boats, accessible emergency tiller. not forgetting big fridges, vastly better electrics and power storage, modern electronics, plenty of opening hatches for ventilation and so on. In 15 years ownership, 10 of them in the Med, none of the sealants on deck fittings needed attention, although most are attached by screws into a bonded in plate. Advances in rigs, sails and sail handling gear remove the benefits of ketch rigs (not that they were actually very popular in their day) and save the cost of a second mast and the space it takes up. Better engines and transmissions plus bow thrusters make boat handling under power and long periods of motoring (key feature for some cruisers) much easier.

It is a myth that modern boats are structurally inferior or that old style boats (like your Conway) are better. You bought your boat at around 20 years old and by your own admission, osmosis is a possibility, or even an inevitability on such a young boat. Look at boats from the late 90's (similar age to when you bought yours) now and you would see exactly the same (except for the lack of osmosis). Proven design and construction with the few model specific weaknesses well known to surveyors. Take my own example a 2001 Bavaria that spent the first 7 years of its life intensively chartered in the Med then sailed back to UK. No structural issues whatsoever, all its original rig and deck gear, engine and domestic electrics apart from the cooker; only significant replacements were new upholstery in the saloon, new sails and windlass When sold in 2015, the new owner spent less than £5k and took it straight back to the Med. You find modern boats sailing all round the world in numbers that dwarf those built by a handful of British boat builders 30-50 years ago. The latter sold in the UK market or a very small subset of the market because that is what was deemed right at the time.

Owners of whatever boat are naturally enthusiastic about their boats, of course they are as they chose it and have so much not just financially invested in it. It seems to me though that some cling on to the past and justify it by disparaging others or rather their choice of boat without actually having the experience of owning, or even sometimes actually sailing other boats. They seem to fail to appreciate that buyers go through exactly the same process of trying to get the best match to their requirements within the budget allocated for the purchase. Some have more money and that gives them greater choice and some are cash limited which limits their choice. So if you only have £25k and want a 36' cruising boat for a couple or a family then a Conway gets on your list. Double that and it is unlikely to get anywhere near your list as a whole host of better and more modern boats come into the frame. Of course for some the "positive" features you outline might still hold an attraction and you might consider spending only £25k on the boat and the same amount on dealing with some of the deficiencies and bringing it up to a similar standard to a boat less than half its age. Downside is that such expenditure does little for the monetary value of the boat so you have to look at long term ownership to justify the expenditure. However, given there were less than 300 built and currently none for sale I would suggest that is not a course many would consider taking.

That really answers the question in your opening sentence. There are few Westerly/Moody/ Colvic owners on this forum (or even on the more popular PBO) simply because, well, they are now only a tiny minority of boat owners. That does not mean that the boats don't fulfil a very useful purpose of providing sound solid cruising boats on a modest budget, particularly for those who like the work associated with keeping them running. However the number in use is falling rapidly as they become uneconomic when a major component such as engine or rig fails and makes the boat unusable. They then haunt ebay (and the back of boat yards) desperately looking for starry eyed buyers who think they can get them running on a shoe string. Some do but the majority get beaten by the work involved, the cost and perhaps more importantly, the cost of storage which is the same essentially whether a boat is used or not.

Excellent summary.

 

[Laminar Flow]

PVB a little presumptuous that it is all 'the heavily built nonsense', if you look over the decades I have experience of, the hull form has changed, displacement depends on actual boat in any era.

1970's Elizabethan 31 - 5080 Kg Long keel, narrower beam, deep forefoot. In my experience a fantastic sea boat but by modern standards slow - but a seaway didn't stop her and she had a comfortable reassuring sea kindly motion.

1990's Hallberg Rassy 31 - 4500kg, Fin and spade, larger beam, double aft (quarter) cabin with beam carried aft but not extreme (deep rudder never had a problem) moderate forefoot with rounded sections, dry foredeck and minimal occasional slamming. VERY fast compared to above, generally expected 1 - 1.5knot higher passage speeds. Coped with heavy weather and comfortable.

2000's Jeanneau Sun Oddysey 32 - 3800Kg, fin and spade, large beam carried aft low sugar scoop waves 'slapped' at anchor making sleep difficult aft, minimal forefoot immersion at rest, bow sections flat. Did not like any sea ie F4 and above to windward, slammed on every wave uncomfortable and 'hard work'

So yes, slight differences in displacement, becoming lighter but the difference in comfort was incredible. Coast hopping in good weather, day sailing the Jeanneau had more space and passed muster if you didn't 'enjoy' sailing, main culprit cheap standard fit sails with 'stretched' genoa. HR, the best of both worlds? modern accommodation (but not extreme), modern passage speeds and comfortable in a sea way. Liz 31 in its day fantastic, comfortable never gave cause for concern coped with everything but was not ( as I have since read ) fast - by modern standards.

Based on those criteria not 'heavily built' but comfort and reassurance I made my comment re the Conway, a major step forward in performance and accommodation from the Liz, yet still a good and comfortable sea boat in a big sea.

The German magazine "Die Yacht" did a comparison test (Baltic F5) with a very similar lineup: Vindo (long keel), HR 29 and Sun Odyssey 30i and made very similar observations, with the Odyssey being not just the worst performer under these circumstances, but by far the most uncomfortable and awkward to steer. The boats were rated to weather, on a reach and a run.
Edit: the Odyssey was given points for having the most volume and shore-side amenities. The conclusion and incidentally the title of the report: "New is not always better".

 

[Laminar Flow]

pvb would you run aground on hard sand doing 6 to 7 knots? It seems very common practice that any modern construction yacht is almost immediately lifted to check for keel damage, but may also have movement in the internal moulding. Ye,s a modern yacht is better designed for the natural environment of sailing in water, but in my opinion not strong enough to hit something solid at speed. Dehler did a test with one of their db1 or 34 to hit a groin at 6 knots, which was filmed, but had no damage. I challange you to do the same with your boat. Running aground is a feature of sailing that a boat must be able to withstand.

I know a number of owners of AWB's who are petrified of grounding or drying out against a wall or even having their boat chocked in a yard. AWB's may be well designed, but many owners know differently. Opposite my berth are some sailing school boats by Jeaneau. The former maintemance guy said they all flexed and the interior squeaked in rough weather, but the newest was by far the worst.

You do continually try compairing hull weight as quoted here.
"The Conway weighs 7315kg, including 3251kg ballast, so has a hull weight of 4064kg.
The slightly shorter Benteau Oceanis 35.1 currently available weighs 5966kg, including 1559kg ballast, so has a hull weight of 4407kg - about 10% heavier than the Conway. "
Slightly shorter is an understatement its hull measures 32ft 9in according to the company brochure compared to 35ft 9in for the Conway.
The beam is 12ft 2in compared to 11ft 2in.
I expect the freeboard of the Oceanis is higher and the beam is certainly carried further aft to make a high volume hull.
The shape of the hull allows for a much lighter keel to be fitted. The deep 6ft 4in keel weighs 3436 lbs compared to the 6ft 0in Conway keel weighing 7167 lbs. Iwould love to see a righting curve of both boats compared.

These designs are chalk and cheese. The first Conway was built in 1974 and the Oceanis from 2015 - only a 41 year difference. The concept of each design is so different. The Conway was designed for sailing in waters round Britian as a safe and comfortable yacht in any weather. Many have traversed the globe and returned to the UK. By comparison the Oceanis is designed around maximising the interior space in the shortest hull length. It's intended use is in warmer water than the UK, but certainly not in all weathers. Read the brochure as see what is said about the sailing quality of the Oceanis, it is all about the interior and the colour choices. https://www.beneteau.com/sites/defa...it/PDF/BEN_Brochure_OCEANIS_35.1_web_en_0.pdf

You continually keep mentioning the Centaur keels falling off. There have been many boats with bilge keels that had problems. They were designed to sail in shallower water, but were then kept on drying moorings. The twice a day grounding on hard sand or sitting in sticky mud caused stresses that exceeded the original design requirement. By comparison the Pembroke had no problems as it was a fin keel Centaur. I could easily mention the yacht that lost its keel in the Channel Isles on a charter and some weeks later it was found to be missing. Luckily the later charters did not try sailing her as she seemed tippy. How the charter company did not spot the keel was missing beggars disbelief. Then the keel lose of the yacht returning from the Caribbean with all the crew drowned or the big Oyster that lost its keel, or even the racing yacht Drum, or........................the list could go on.

So get off your soapbox as you are getting very close to breaching ybw rules 4.3 and 4.4 in this thread and a number of others. Keep it up and I will report your posts.

I know folk like bringing up the crash test done by "Die Yacht" with a Dehler to prove the remarkable resilience of contemporary craft, but it should be noted that that was near 40 years ago and by the standards used on this forum to define modernity that is antediluvian.

 

[pvb]

I know folk like bringing up the crash test done by "Die Yacht" with a Dehler to prove the remarkable resilience of contemporary craft, but it should be noted that that was near 40 years ago and by the standards used on this forum to define modernity that is antediluvian.

But the people who quote the Dehler test are generally living in the past anyway! Hence their constant assertion that the 1970/80s were the peak spot of boatbuilding.

 

[Tranona]

I know folk like bringing up the crash test done by "Die Yacht" with a Dehler to prove the remarkable resilience of contemporary craft, but it should be noted that that was near 40 years ago and by the standards used on this forum to define modernity that is antediluvian.

Given that you are always trying to quote "evidence" - even though it is always used to try and support your position perhaps you could find some concrete reliable evidence that "modern" boats however you define them are falling apart and lying around in boatyards or at the bottom of the sea or are penalised by insurers because they are so flimsy and badly built. Please do not bring up the rare well aired examples which represent such a tiny fraction of the tens of thousands of boats that are happily sailing the world with their happy owners. With the same amount of misplaced energy some expend in finding these examples you could match them with plenty of examples of badly built older boats - a taste of which was given by our Conway owner who reignited this thread. Look through the mags particularly PBO over the last 20 years or so, or indeed read this forum and you will get a fair flavour of the horrors people have uncovered when refitting boats from the 60s - late 80s. This is not necessarily a criticism of the people involved at the time, but the level of knowledge of design, materials and particularly manufacturing were by today's standards primitive. I know standards have changed and as someone who spent a chunk of his working life in the late 70s early 80s around the UK boat building industry I know which sort of boat I would prefer and indeed have invested large sums of money in.

I am always amused by the comparisons between minority interest old designs that sold in small numbers (largely because of high cost) with modern mass production boats designed for a different purpose, just because they have nominally the same hull length. What are they trying to prove? Doubt any potential buyer would have the 3 boats mentioned in your earlier post on their short list! The 32' comparison done by the biased YM several years ago was equally flawed. If they had compared a CO32 with its modern day equivalent such as an Elan 333 or a First 31/7 the newer boats would have walked it. Instead they chose a Bavaria 32 which is aimed at a totally different market and cost in real terms about half as much when new - and then were cock a hoop because on their partisan score sheet the CO got 2 more points out of 100! Again, what are they trying to show except for their bias? - certainly showing they have zero understanding of what motivates people to buy one particular boat rather than another.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Welcome to the forum

A very well balanced assessment. The first half explains why it suits you - but clearly you are in a tiny minority as boats like the Conway have not been built for more than 30 years - and even when they were in build sold in small numbers by today's standards.

Times move on and your list of deficiencies partially explains why many people who have the choice and the money prefer to buy new(er) boats, even though many had bought boats like the Conway and others of the much loved (?) favourites in the past. Why? very simple in the 1970 up to mid 90s that is all you could buy on a modest (by new boat standards) budget. And then -such is progress - better propositions came along and buyers changed priorities and bought boats better suited to their requirements. These boats have lived up to their owners' expectations and there are many here (like me) who can write equally long posts explaining why we bought our boats and the many, many years of good service they have given.

The big, big difference however would be that the list of deficiencies would be much smaller. No osmosis, no hidden drain cocks - in fact most drain through the transom, proper anchoring facilities with draining lockers and windlasses as standard, no collapsing mast steps, no wet bilges (the bilge pump in my last boat died from lack of use), holding tanks standard or easy to retrofit on older boats, accessible emergency tiller. not forgetting big fridges, vastly better electrics and power storage, modern electronics, plenty of opening hatches for ventilation and so on. In 15 years ownership, 10 of them in the Med, none of the sealants on deck fittings needed attention, although most are attached by screws into a bonded in plate. Advances in rigs, sails and sail handling gear remove the benefits of ketch rigs (not that they were actually very popular in their day) and save the cost of a second mast and the space it takes up. Better engines and transmissions plus bow thrusters make boat handling under power and long periods of motoring (key feature for some cruisers) much easier.

It is a myth that modern boats are structurally inferior or that old style boats (like your Conway) are better. You bought your boat at around 20 years old and by your own admission, osmosis is a possibility, or even an inevitability on such a young boat. Look at boats from the late 90's (similar age to when you bought yours) now and you would see exactly the same (except for the lack of osmosis). Proven design and construction with the few model specific weaknesses well known to surveyors. Take my own example a 2001 Bavaria that spent the first 7 years of its life intensively chartered in the Med then sailed back to UK. No structural issues whatsoever, all its original rig and deck gear, engine and domestic electrics apart from the cooker; only significant replacements were new upholstery in the saloon, new sails and windlass When sold in 2015, the new owner spent less than £5k and took it straight back to the Med. You find modern boats sailing all round the world in numbers that dwarf those built by a handful of British boat builders 30-50 years ago. The latter sold in the UK market or a very small subset of the market because that is what was deemed right at the time.

Owners of whatever boat are naturally enthusiastic about their boats, of course they are as they chose it and have so much not just financially invested in it. It seems to me though that some cling on to the past and justify it by disparaging others or rather their choice of boat without actually having the experience of owning, or even sometimes actually sailing other boats. They seem to fail to appreciate that buyers go through exactly the same process of trying to get the best match to their requirements within the budget allocated for the purchase. Some have more money and that gives them greater choice and some are cash limited which limits their choice. So if you only have £25k and want a 36' cruising boat for a couple or a family then a Conway gets on your list. Double that and it is unlikely to get anywhere near your list as a whole host of better and more modern boats come into the frame. Of course for some the "positive" features you outline might still hold an attraction and you might consider spending only £25k on the boat and the same amount on dealing with some of the deficiencies and bringing it up to a similar standard to a boat less than half its age. Downside is that such expenditure does little for the monetary value of the boat so you have to look at long term ownership to justify the expenditure. However, given there were less than 300 built and currently none for sale I would suggest that is not a course many would consider taking.

That really answers the question in your opening sentence. There are few Westerly/Moody/ Colvic owners on this forum (or even on the more popular PBO) simply because, well, they are now only a tiny minority of boat owners. That does not mean that the boats don't fulfil a very useful purpose of providing sound solid cruising boats on a modest budget, particularly for those who like the work associated with keeping them running. However the number in use is falling rapidly as they become uneconomic when a major component such as engine or rig fails and makes the boat unusable. They then haunt ebay (and the back of boat yards) desperately looking for starry eyed buyers who think they can get them running on a shoe string. Some do but the majority get beaten by the work involved, the cost and perhaps more importantly, the cost of storage which is the same essentially whether a boat is used or not.

One last note to your clear summary: beyond the structural fabric of contemporary boats and the obvious benefits of ancillaries that are new(er), it should be noted that perhaps some of the current and mainstream offerings do not have certain features that a potential buyer may want or are affordable as a custom build.
We cannot buy such a boat as we currently own and we certainly could not afford it, especially at a 500.000 price tag. However, we were able to restore, upgrade and improve a 40 year old piece of classic plastic that came with the features we were looking for. Moreover, we could even provide it with all the amenities that are, apparently, only available to modern new-builds and without having to sell the house or hire out the kids for medical experiments.

 

[Tranona]

One last note to your clear summary: beyond the structural fabric of contemporary boats and the obvious benefits of ancillaries that are new(er), it should be noted that perhaps some of the current and mainstream offerings do not have certain features that a potential buyer may want or are affordable as a custom build.
We cannot buy such a boat as we currently own and we certainly could not afford it, especially at a 500.000 price tag. However, we were able to restore, upgrade and improve a 40 year old piece of classic plastic that came with the features we were looking for. Moreover, we could even provide it with all the amenities that are, apparently, only available to modern new-builds and without having to sell the house or hire out the kids for medical experiments.

Yes, but as I said earlier the number of people who are prepared to do this is vanishingly small - and all power to you. Been through that loop myself, but just glad I chartered a Bavaria 20 odd years ago (having done the same the year before with a then highly desirable Moody which was top of my list) and realised how good they were in comparison for my purposes. My faith fulfilled to the extent of buying a second one.

The danger is in seeing the world through your own minority choice and ignoring the fact that it is minority. Nothing wrong with that - just don't bang on about how bad you think others' choices are when there is more than enough evidence that their boat of choice is sound, even if not to your liking.

 

[Supertramp]

Yes, but as I said earlier the number of people who are prepared to do this is vanishingly small - and all power to you. Been through that loop myself, but just glad I chartered a Bavaria 20 odd years ago (having done the same the year before with a then highly desirable Moody which was top of my list) and realised how good they were in comparison for my purposes. My faith fulfilled to the extent of buying a second one.

The danger is in seeing the world through your own minority choice and ignoring the fact that it is minority. Nothing wrong with that - just don't bang on about how bad you think others' choices are when there is more than enough evidence that their boat of choice is sound, even if not to your liking.

The real difference that emerges in the old vs new debate for me is the design differences of an older Westerly vs a modern design. The Conway is quite different in feel and handling from a current Bavaria etc. The features of hull shape and rig and layout can be found in modern built boats but interesting that the price is often much higher than mainstream designs. More specialised design further differentiated by quality of build/materials? I think it is the design features some older boats display that attract me and I will settle for more repairs and maintenance to avoid the new build cost of the design features I want.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Given that you are always trying to quote "evidence" - even though it is always used to try and support your position perhaps you could find some concrete reliable evidence that "modern" boats however you define them are falling apart and lying around in boatyards or at the bottom of the sea or are penalised by insurers because they are so flimsy and badly built. Please do not bring up the rare well aired examples which represent such a tiny fraction of the tens of thousands of boats that are happily sailing the world with their happy owners.

I have never claimed that "modern" boats are flimsy or more likely to fall apart, ever. In fact, with modern materials we can make all sorts of things stick together and subject them to considerable abuse that would have been quite impossible not so long ago.

As far as boats are concerned, I am basically interested in why and how they sail, the particular merits or demerits of certain types, hulls and appendages. I actually don't even care what material a boat is made of, or when it was built. In regards to the endless debate on long versus short keels I tend to remain neutral; each has it's merits and if a short one falls off, it was either poor engineering or shoddy construction or both; some shapes and construction methods are more easily engineered for hitting stuff.

What does get my goat are the frequent and technically incorrect claims made for or against both traditional and modern boats. This is why I post numbers or proof, as you call it.
I have designed, built, modified and restored boats of all types and I have also sailed, cruised and raced them across oceans and in all weather.

Displacement craft have reached an apex of design that ensures that the differences in performance for most models, whether built in the 70's, 80's, 90's or 2000's and in terms of common use or for cruising, are so close as to make little difference. Your example regarding the CO32 simply proves my point. The interior designs reflect personal taste, each to their own. Some are not suitable for offshore use, but then most people never go beyond the sight of land or sail over night.

What is not considered much these days is sea kindliness. But this requires depth of hull, modest beam, v shaped sections in the bow and weight, all of which costs money, speed and space and for a two week holiday in the Med or the Carribeean such qualities are not all that important. It is as you say: a matter of popular consumer choice.
Whether such choices make a better boat, that is of course debatable.

 

[Tranona]

The real difference that emerges in the old vs new debate for me is the design differences of an older Westerly vs a modern design. The Conway is quite different in feel and handling from a current Bavaria etc. The features of hull shape and rig and layout can be found in modern built boats but interesting that the price is often much higher than mainstream designs. More specialised design further differentiated by quality of build/materials? I think it is the design features some older boats display that attract me and I will settle for more repairs and maintenance to avoid the new build cost of the design features I want.

That is true - but the mass market seemingly does not value that style of boat, otherwise it would still be in production as there is no reason why such boats could not be built just as well and cheaply as a Bavaria IF the demand was there. Unfortunately the demand fell off a cliff when buyers were offered an alternative!

 

[Tranona]

What is not considered much these days is sea kindliness. But this requires depth of hull, modest beam, v shaped sections in the bow and weight, all of which costs money, speed and space and for a two week holiday in the Med or the Carribeean such qualities are not all that important. It is as you say: a matter of popular consumer choice.
Whether such choices make a better boat, that is of course debatable.

The best boats are those that meet their owners' expectations. There is no independent better/best measure other than that. So your "better" boat could be my nightmare - indeed I could not contemplate owning a boat like yours (or a CO32) because they were designed to meet a different set of requirements from those I am looking for.

You really are grasping at straws with the old "sea kindliness" argument with the disparaging claim that non seakindly (presumably by your standard), are only good for 2 weeks in the Caribbean or the Med, ignoring the huge numbers that sail offshore very successfully. Imagine a world where only boats that meet with your approval (and built 30 or more years ago) were allowed out into the big wide world! You really do seem to be stuck in the past and ignore all that has happened in boat design over the last 30 or so years. Fortunately those with the money to pursue their dreams don't seem to have these hangups and quite happily buy new boats. You only have to look at the growing number of youtubes of people going off sailing to see that the majority use production boats of more modern design. Why? because they are there and they do the job. Of course some take on older style designs, but the number of those available at least on this side of the Atlantic is very limited. Exactly the same reason why those with bigger budgets buy modern production boats - they do the job! Really no different from those intrepid people of 30 or 40 years ago who bought new Westerlys Moodys etc (and even Golden Hinds!) if they could afford it and if not bought old wooden boats or built their own.

We have a saying in the social sciences - " a way of seeing is a way of not seeing" which often results in ignoring the evidence that is all around you as it does not fit with what you would prefer to see.

 

[Laminar Flow]

The best boats are those that meet their owners' expectations. There is no independent better/best measure other than that. So your "better" boat could be my nightmare - indeed I could not contemplate owning a boat like yours (or a CO32) because they were designed to meet a different set of requirements from those I am looking for.

You really are grasping at straws with the old "sea kindliness" argument with the disparaging claim that non seakindly (presumably by your standard), are only good for 2 weeks in the Caribbean or the Med, ignoring the huge numbers that sail offshore very successfully. Imagine a world where only boats that meet with your approval (and built 30 or more years ago) were allowed out into the big wide world! You really do seem to be stuck in the past and ignore all that has happened in boat design over the last 30 or so years. Fortunately those with the money to pursue their dreams don't seem to have these hangups and quite happily buy new boats. You only have to look at the growing number of youtubes of people going off sailing to see that the majority use production boats of more modern design. Why? because they are there and they do the job. Of course some take on older style designs, but the number of those available at least on this side of the Atlantic is very limited. Exactly the same reason why those with bigger budgets buy modern production boats - they do the job! Really no different from those intrepid people of 30 or 40 years ago who bought new Westerlys Moodys etc (and even Golden Hinds!) if they could afford it and if not bought old wooden boats or built their own.

We have a saying in the social sciences - " a way of seeing is a way of not seeing" which often results in ignoring the evidence that is all around you as it does not fit with what you would prefer to see.

I find it rather surprising that you accuse me of being closed-minded. I have absolutely no particular beef against contemporary boats, other that one needs to be aware that an emphasis on certain singular aspects of design has a detrimental effect on other qualities.
You on the other hand seem to think that everything else, including other opinions that do not meet your approval are rubbish.

Equally, I always thought that seakindliness was a technical issue, even if it is concerned with the well-being of the sailor at sea and as such might be regarded as somewhat difficult to define. However, research has shown that the human body functions better when not exposed to accelerations beyond a certain velocity and duration, which in a boat is heavily influenced by water plane loading , radius of gyration and pitching moment. After some 60.000 miles I'm beginning to get an understanding of what this might be about.

Having done my stint in advertising and marketing, you will forgive me if I do not put as much trust in popular choice or opinion as you do. The fact that people choose to make ocean crossings with what is at hand is hardly new or surprising; one could question and, indeed it has been debated, whether Slocum's Spray, a flat, inshore oyster dredger, was/is a suitable craft for a circumnavigation. Just because someone sails off with what they have or is cheaply/conveniently available doesn't mean it is necessarily the optimum choice nor an endorsement. Apart from that I couldn't care less what boats people buy or choose to head out in, its a free country after all.

 

[ridgy]

I think we all know what LF means when he talks about seakindliness. Next week I'm taking a 1999 vintage Sun Odyssey 40, a boat that I know well, on a 600 mile trip to Scotland.
I know that tied up I will enjoy those spacious cabins, glass of wine in hand, but I also know that when we are beating north in the predicted northerlies on Monday/Tuesday then I'll have plenty of opportunity to reflect on seakindliness. It's not just the incessant slamming either, the creaking, groaning and general noise that go with it make for a very tiring experience.

 

[doug748]

We are all a bit guilty of tunnel vision or to put it more charitably, we know what we look for in boat, nothing wrong with that.


The family man is search of a base well away from his home needs room above all else The 'traditional' sailor sees only the lack of handy stowage, shallow cockpits and slappy transoms; he wants sea manners over all else, empty space below decks is a liability it you don't need it or want it. It's not welcome at the cost of poor upwind performance, windage problems in a marina or pounding to windward.

A lot of new models are jolly well made, but let down by design and odd lapses due to fashion. This is not new, there were some distinctly odd sail plans and deck layouts in the past even on boats that would never race.
Today we have the plumb bow which we are told maximises sailing length and room below whilst keeping marina costs low. In fact it encourages the boat to sail bow down, plunge in a seaway and has little reserve buoyance to support it's chain and windlass. The solution to anchoring problems is to fit a bowsprit, this modern innovation prevents topside damage and also solves sail handling problems but increases the length of the boat (well I never) so you might as well have had an attractive, stronger and more useful raked bow in the first place

Chines.......... another throw of the dice to keep a triangular boat pointing forward
Twin rudders....... ditto
Bow thrusters............. ditto
Stern thrusters................ditto
Twin helms in order to see where you are going plus a very deep lightweight iron keel to help the mast point skyward

You end up with a nicely finished boat externally, terrific for a big crew around the Solent but a poor shorthanded, offshore cruising compromise. Two rudders to snag, a 6ft + club footed, keel and a saildrive to catch the crab lines the others missed. It's now heavy, slow in light airs and you motor upwind. Mind you the motoring is faultless, my old ripper loosens your teeth at 5 knots .

How will they fare in the long term? They will have leaks, failing engines, scruffy hulls, just like most of the present crop. What will scrap them off more than anything, in the year of our Lord 2050, is failing cored construction, particularly of decks but also of delaminated and damaged topsides. This will be compounded by a fair share of costly keel problem which are emerging even now
These are tricky fixes, you need a compelling reason to do them. Given their poor interiors and sailing properties, I am not sure there will be the motivation to preserve 30 year old boats as there increasingly is today.

.

 

[pvb]

I think we all know what LF means when he talks about seakindliness. Next week I'm taking a 1999 vintage Sun Odyssey 40, a boat that I know well, on a 600 mile trip to Scotland.
I know that tied up I will enjoy those spacious cabins, glass of wine in hand, but I also know that when we are beating north in the predicted northerlies on Monday/Tuesday then I'll have plenty of opportunity to reflect on seakindliness. It's not just the incessant slamming either, the creaking, groaning and general noise that go with it make for a very tiring experience.

This century's boats must be better built. Mine doesn't creak or groan!

 

[Tranona]

We are all a bit guilty of tunnel vision or to put it more charitably, we know what we look for in boat, nothing wrong with that.


The family man is search of a base well away from his home needs room above all else The 'traditional' sailor sees only the lack of handy stowage, shallow cockpits and slappy transoms; he wants sea manners over all else, empty space below decks is a liability it you don't need it or want it. It's not welcome at the cost of poor upwind performance, windage problems in a marina or pounding to windward.

A lot of new models are jolly well made, but let down by design and odd lapses due to fashion. This is not new, there were some distinctly odd sail plans and deck layouts in the past even on boats that would never race.
Today we have the plumb bow which we are told maximises sailing length and room below whilst keeping marina costs low. In fact it encourages the boat to sail bow down, plunge in a seaway and has little reserve buoyance to support it's chain and windlass. The solution to anchoring problems is to fit a bowsprit, this modern innovation prevents topside damage and also solves sail handling problems but increases the length of the boat (well I never) so you might as well have had an attractive, stronger and more useful raked bow in the first place

Chines.......... another throw of the dice to keep a triangular boat pointing forward
Twin rudders....... ditto
Bow thrusters............. ditto
Stern thrusters................ditto
Twin helms in order to see where you are going plus a very deep lightweight iron keel to help the mast point skyward

You end up with a nicely finished boat externally, terrific for a big crew around the Solent but a poor shorthanded, offshore cruising compromise. Two rudders to snag, a 6ft + club footed, keel and a saildrive to catch the crab lines the others missed. It's now heavy, slow in light airs and you motor upwind. Mind you the motoring is faultless, my old ripper loosens your teeth at 5 knots .

How will they fare in the long term? They will have leaks, failing engines, scruffy hulls, just like most of the present crop. What will scrap them off more than anything, in the year of our Lord 2050, is failing cored construction, particularly of decks but also of delaminated and damaged topsides. This will be compounded by a fair share of costly keel problem which are emerging even now
These are tricky fixes, you need a compelling reason to do them. Given their poor interiors and sailing properties, I am not sure there will be the motivation to preserve 30 year old boats as there increasingly is today.

.

Worth noting that many of the features you mention are recent developments, and not universal (twin rudders, chines, torpedo keels etc). There are tens of thousands of "modern" boats built in the period 1990- 2010 that are far more conventional and are the modern day versions of the Westerly/Moody etc. and perform the same function as those earlier designs - modest family cruisers.

How will they fare in the long term? Suggest you look here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html Most members own boats from that period. Look down the threads, and in particular the second sticky and you will see what sort of issues members come across in their boats. Little different from PBO threads, and note how few relate to the structure or "Bavaria" bits of the boats. None of the problems you suggest might occur have shown up after 25 or 30 years, so no reason why the next 30 years should be any different.

I remember the looks of horror on the faces of the old salts when the Moody 33 was launched. Within 10 years its design principles became the norm and now 40+ years on they and the derivations 36 and 39 and highly regarded and often recommended here for low cost ocean cruisers!

Much the same now. I am an old salt and don't care for the idea of many of the latest features of mid range cruising boats - although if I were still in the Med I would not hesitate to buy one. Bavaria C38 would do me nicely, although I could not afford one now so would settle for its predecessor 37!

Not convinced that the motivation to preserve 30 year old boats is really there for much longer. Like home building, it is a product of the times, but the cost of refit is becoming out of proportion to the value of the boats and the supply of suitable boats is dwindling. The next generation are in themselves becoming desirable in the marketplace as the overall cost of such boats has now reached a sort of balance with refitted older boats.

Only the market will decide despite what we wafflers say here!

 

[Concerto]

Everyone choose a boat that suits their needs and budget. The massive increase in charter operations around the world have influenced yacht design markedly, for good or bad. The knowledge of improved quality materials cannot be denied, nor can the use of computer aided design to help produce boats in mass production factories. The modern designs certainly do not sit in the water, but on it. They do bounce and slam a lot, sometimes giving the owners a terrible night's sleep or an uncomfortable ride. My big gripe is the construction method of using a bonded in matrix structure. Yes, it means many parts of a boat can be assembled using CNC machines and will guarantee to fit, making huge cost savings compared to construction methods from the 1970's to 1990's. The problem is the word bonding. There are an increasing number of cases of detactment, especially after grounding, of the matrix. In my opinion after so many decades of commercial GRP yacht building, this should have been designed and manufactured out to be only an extreme event like getting stuck on rocks on a lee shore in a gale.

Currently I am sailing on the East Coast and have been struck by a couple of interesting observations. Many of the rivers like the Alde and Deben have a huge number of yachts less than 30ft and definitely over 30 years old. There are few 40ft+ yachts. This is due to the shallow entrances and is unlikely to change. So most of the current production yachts are going to be too large to ever be kept there in the future. With such limited manufacture of smaller yachts, will these rivers see fewer yachts berthed there or will many just be maintained forever and a day.

The second observation is the number of wooden boats that are being kept in good condition. Most of these are now over 50 years old and not all kept by geriatric sailors. There must be a reason these old yachts are being kept in use and not rotting in the back of a boatyard. They certainly do not meet modern buyers, but they are certainly still loved for what they are. Even now there are events specifically for classic yachts all over the world. In fact, my Westerly Fulmar is considered a classic yacht by the Oostende voor Anker as it is now over 40 years old. Skippers & exhibitors : registration for 2021 is now open - Oostende voor Anker

The third observation is the number of yachts ashore at marinas, boatyards and clubs. There are literally thousands that look like they have not seen water for years and I doubt many never will looking at the state of them. Even those that look reasonable, many I doubt did not touch the water last year and look unlikely to this year. There do seem to be plenty of vacant moorings and some marina berths (Lowestoft Haven Marina was half empty), even MDL Woolverstone has vacant berths according to my brother who is considering moving his boat here after some repairs/improvements at Foxes.

Some old boats will come to the end of an economic life, most likely due to poor maintenance over decades. Maintaining a boat is expensive, but nowhere near as expensive as renovating a poorly cared for yacht. There will always be items that require replacement over time, like rigging, sails, ropes, electronics, engines, cookers, upholstery, etc. As the current crop of post 2000 yachts reach 40 years old, I wonder how much in demand they will be. Recently the secondhand market for boats of all types and ages has seen a post lockdown boost and prices have risen. This may slump again in a couple of years time when those new to keeping a boat find out how much it costs, not just in berthing, but all the extras of maintenance or possibly finding sailing in the UK is not the same as in warmer climates.

The final comment I have to make is that the world has a finite quantity of materials that can be used and new boat building may become more expensive with prices rising faster than incomes. The word recycling springs to mind. With such a huge quantity of GRP boats with a fairly long life, it may become much more economic to buy an older boat and renovate it. My own Fulmar with all the work I have done, has still only cost about a third of a new boat the same size. If I had paid someone to dom the work, it would certainly be higher but not excessive if new yachts costs rise even faster. Even today I had two sailors on a modern yacht comment at how smart my boat looked, only for me to say it was not yet quite as good as I want it.

It is looking very likely that Concerto will be at the 2021 Southampton Boat Show as the Westerly Owners Association boat. Only a few days ago I was informed that a final decision will be made shortly and they are looking for a number of owners associations to participate. Then you will all be welcome to come and see how good an older boat can be made to look, but not how exceedingly well she sails. You should also be able to meet me as I will be staying aboard for the duration of the show.