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Maintenance costs going from 40 to 60 foot

prinex

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2015
Messages
59
So leaving berth cost / disaster engine explosions / cosmetic refits etc to the side: I know the costs of keeping my 2005 41 foot Abbate Primatist G41 very well - which basically are around 3K Euro every 2 years to keep the Volvo "feets" healthy, and another 2K Euro in the year in average for "things that break" and engine check / oil change (macerator engine, various pumps etc).

This is a 2 cabins 2 baths double kitchen, 2x Volvo 370s engines with aircon, 6kw generator etc. I do everything myself except engine work (mainly because the engines are so cramped in the engine bay that only the mechanic (30 years younger than me) is able to reach where he has to.

Are the cost for keeping a 60 foot running similar or way higher ? My expectations is that the cost for keeping the Volvo pods running will fall off with a "normal" axe, and engine care costs will go up (due to a 600 foot typically having 800hp or more engines). All other components (electronic, pumps, radar etc) should mostly be the same - one should offset the other. And even antifouling etc - on the Primatist it is done every 2 years when the feets gets serviced. In my marina the 60+ foot people have the boat always in the water, a guy with a underwater lance comes in in June and scraps the marine growth from underwater for something like 200 Euro. Proper hull service is done every 5-6 years or so.

Or is maintenance going up exponentially for some reason (like the water cooling system may cost 2K on the 370s volvo but 10K on a 800hp man for some reason, or bilge pumps costing 3xtimes as much etc).
 

markc

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Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
1,847
Location
Bucks & St Raphael SoF
Man maths says it's "about the same"

In all seriousness, the quality of the boat, it's ancillaries and how well it's looked after will have a greater influence on the ongoing costs as opposed to the length. Certain engines can be expensive - I have MTUs and they are considerably more money to look after via a main dealer than other engines I've had, but I'm happy to get my hands dirty, so that saves quite a bit.
 

julians

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Joined
11 Jun 2006
Messages
1,853
Those costs for your current boat sound really cheap to me.
 

TonyR123

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20 Feb 2016
Messages
384
Location
Puerto Portals
the biggest increase in cost will be your mooring fees. Where I am fees almost double from a 15m mooring to an 18m mooring. Also doubles from a 12m mooring to a 15m mooring. Engines, generators are more expensive to service but certainly not double.
 

kashurst

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Joined
10 Oct 2003
Messages
8,269
Location
west yorkshire
Man maths says it's "about the same"
. :ROFLMAO:
Well similar - the antifouling and anodes will be proportionately more - so about 50% more. The engines and gearboxes, it's probably best to get some idea of what engines you could be looking at and then get some prices. They will be more expensive in oil and filters.
 

prinex

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2015
Messages
59
Those costs for your current boat sound really cheap to me.
I took the invoices of the mechanic shop of the last 7 years and divided by 7 ... we had only 2 big hits, just at start when the pistons of the steering failed straight away and we had to replace them, apparently a know problem with volvo (we decided to redo all the idraulic connections just to be sure), and then 2 years ago when both turbo had to be replaced. Those together where 10K, otherwise is anodes / zinc, oil replacement , belts etc. We do around 100 hours a year, and 80% of it at displacement speed.

The previous boat (steel trawler) I did everything myself including modifying the upper structure of the boat (tons of welding !), and engine service - the boat had a engine room with standing height - and the costs where almost zero, every now and then I had to go to the shop to get some part redone or rectified. The Deutz engine delivering like 80HP at 800 rpm was impossible to destroy.

And of course berthing (the actual boat is too large to fit in a 12mt bay so its in a 15 mt bay which cost 7500 Euro a year where I am (which is probably the most expensive marina around, walking access to the city center etc but has the huge advantage of being 2 kms from where I have my house, if I would be willing to drive 5 km more I could save another 1.5K a year).

I checked the prices for a 18 x 5 mt berth and is around 12/17K a year so yes twice the price, the way it works here the berths are in the marina but have been sold, so you rent it out from the owner (which also pays the marina fees etc). At the moment many berth over 15mt are empty (we had tons of UK boats which are gone after Brexit btw, and Covid did not help as people could not come to Italy for months) so it may be possible to score a decent deal on a 18mt or even a 20mt bay - or just move to the other marina which is quite desperate for customers (to the tune "if you sign a 5 year rent is 40% less") but the city access is really a big plus.

Fuel cost will double (the Primatist does 80L/hour both engines together at around 24kn, I expect 180 L/hour) - or just do more displacement speed to keep the bill in check.

Now is just a matter of finding the right vessel, Im a big fan of older Sanlorenzo (57 or 62, maybe 70) - MAN engines, mainly for the huge space inside, central cabin, the kitchen in a separate room and the table left of the pilot station (which will double as office for me) - also the access to the engine room, my idea is that I will be able to replicate what I did on the trawler - that is taking care of engine and systems with the occasional mechanic help. I don't really care much for "keeping the boat spotless" or tvs that pop out of furniture or the newest navigation gadget, as my crew is made out of a mix of wild teenagers and older party-goers so every trip becomes "interesting" let's say.
 

Portofino

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Joined
10 Apr 2011
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9,669
Location
Boat- Western Med
I took the invoices of the mechanic shop of the last 7 years and divided by 7 ... we had only 2 big hits, just at start when the pistons of the steering failed straight away and we had to replace them, apparently a know problem with volvo (we decided to redo all the idraulic connections just to be sure), and then 2 years ago when both turbo had to be replaced. Those together where 10K, otherwise is anodes / zinc, oil replacement , belts etc. We do around 100 hours a year, and 80% of it at displacement speed.

The previous boat (steel trawler) I did everything myself including modifying the upper structure of the boat (tons of welding !), and engine service - the boat had a engine room with standing height - and the costs where almost zero, every now and then I had to go to the shop to get some part redone or rectified. The Deutz engine delivering like 80HP at 800 rpm was impossible to destroy.

And of course berthing (the actual boat is too large to fit in a 12mt bay so its in a 15 mt bay which cost 7500 Euro a year where I am (which is probably the most expensive marina around, walking access to the city center etc but has the huge advantage of being 2 kms from where I have my house, if I would be willing to drive 5 km more I could save another 1.5K a year).

I checked the prices for a 18 x 5 mt berth and is around 12/17K a year so yes twice the price, the way it works here the berths are in the marina but have been sold, so you rent it out from the owner (which also pays the marina fees etc). At the moment many berth over 15mt are empty (we had tons of UK boats which are gone after Brexit btw, and Covid did not help as people could not come to Italy for months) so it may be possible to score a decent deal on a 18mt or even a 20mt bay - or just move to the other marina which is quite desperate for customers (to the tune "if you sign a 5 year rent is 40% less") but the city access is really a big plus.

Fuel cost will double (the Primatist does 80L/hour both engines together at around 24kn, I expect 180 L/hour) - or just do more displacement speed to keep the bill in check.

Now is just a matter of finding the right vessel, Im a big fan of older Sanlorenzo (57 or 62, maybe 70) - MAN engines, mainly for the huge space inside, central cabin, the kitchen in a separate room and the table left of the pilot station (which will double as office for me) - also the access to the engine room, my idea is that I will be able to replicate what I did on the trawler - that is taking care of engine and systems with the occasional mechanic help. I don't really care much for "keeping the boat spotless" or tvs that pop out of furniture or the newest navigation gadget, as my crew is made out of a mix of wild teenagers and older party-goers so every trip becomes "interesting" let's say.
Where in Italy are you - Marina ?
I think you under estimate the fuel consumption.
I get 180 L hr out of MAN 12.8 L .You will have 22/24 L MAN s V12 s 820 s in the SL 57 , so double as I get good speed in a lighter boat sub 1800 rpm .
The push aSL 57 tube you are gonna be nearer 2000 rpm .Therefore any where from 360 to 400 L / hr to see 22/24 knots .
You might drop that down a bit @ 18/20 knots to over 300 , might ?

This 4/5 year antifoul with a annual diver jet wash is a bit silly as it grows back within weeks
So it’s needs a jet wash every 3/4 weeks unless it’s properly anti-fouled .I tried that last season .Forced into it due to Covid restrictions in the yards 2020: Rubbish idea .

€300 for the initial and €200 for each after on a 15 M boat in Loano Liguria.
Really best way is one annual AF + zincs + stern-gear. Saves fuel and saves your motors straining, overloaded.
Mine was €2.5 K + anodes
A 18 M I reckon will be €5 + K + anodes .Maybe more it’s just longer so everything inc the day rate , lift rate is more .
I think my day hard standing was around €35 , yours will be at least €50 ?

As far as D speeding it to save fuel , they still need opening up with clean sterngear and hull otherwise you will kill those old school engines designed for high speed planing , due to under-loading .
Your Deutz , scale up analogy is flawed .MAN s are pretty sophisticated and on a different power level , with all that comes with that .

Your cooler services for those V 12 s are about €10 K each as other stuff will need doing
Air filters X 4 are over €100:each and you need . 4 oil filters @ €40 each .
Not sure how much oil need but as a guide I buy 70:L for my pair 1/2 your size ?
There is a cold start flap valve unique to the V 12 s of that generation which is no longer available as a single part .These go and you have to buy the whole charge air cooler at €5 k each .
Obviously there are 24 injectors to maintain.
Impellors are €340 each and iirc you may need 4 , 2 in each pump on the V12
The pumps are €2 K each , one on each engine to service / rebuild ,/ refurb change all the bearings seals inc Labour .

I would be looking at a well maintained DD powered SL 57 for your envisaged-usage pattern = a lot of D speed + a lot of DIY , with the odd blast , Italian tune up :D . 8 V 92 - around 650 Hp cruise at 18 knots and tops out @24 .
 

prinex

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2015
Messages
59
Lots of good points in your message, this is the kind of info I was looking into as I have zero experience with large engines (im based in Portosole marina in Sanremo btw)

It also looks I need to budget differently as with the actual boat, set up a different account when I will purchase (let' say 50/70K Euro) for repairs and top it up every year with another 15K - so that if that expensive part do break and I need 20K to fix it is not going to be out of the principal account (this mainly so the missus does not get grey hair when she sees a 20K flopping away :cool: ) So basically my budget is now price-of-boat + "repairs" fund.

I looked at the last invoice when I got antifouling etc (i do that every 2 years) and it was 1.4K for lift / wash / AF, 18 Euro a day - this on a 12.5 x 4 boat so maybe my yard is a cheap one :) Largest recent bill I could find was 3.6K Euro from the mechanic for engine service, but it included cleaning of the heat exchanger and a brand new alternator, usually it is between 1K and 1.5K

400lt an hours on the SL57 ... this one here has 8V92 DD which are the 12L not the 24l engines but the one we had at the yard had MAN engines (and they told me they where by far the best). The San Lorenzo 62s I have seen around have D2842LE402 MAN 1110HP engines, which seems to have "at 2000RPM one engine produces 575KW (772HP), and fuel cons 145l/hr or 290l/h/2engines".

So to boil it all down - I need to find out what happens to those engines if I run 10 hours displacement and half an hour boost, to find a boat with a proven maintenance history (you know the italian way), and add another 50/70K to my budget or bargain hard and hope for a deal :sneaky: - the SL57 with MANs was offered to me last year at 80K and it looks more and more I made a bad decision declining that offer....
 

Portofino

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Joined
10 Apr 2011
Messages
9,669
Location
Boat- Western Med
^^^ A better plan .
As long as there is a good maintenance history you should be ok 👍.
Same for the rest of the boats mechanicals .
Those manufacturer fuel graphs ( available on line ) are misleading as they are test beds not under load .
A real 40 tonne SL 62 particularly in its 2 nd season of your 2 y lift out plan will burn a hell of a lot more nearer or over 200 L per side @ 2000 rpm .

Last year with a 2 nd season of AF ( supposed to have lasted it didn’t so was diver jet washed ) I regularly saw nearer 100 L / side at 1800 rpm and something like 95 % load , so i left it at that no higher rpm s to nurse the engines .About a 20 T boat loaded up btw .Should have been nearer 80 % ,
Its actually today 75-77 % with 80 odd L / hr this season with immaculate AF d stern gear.

Paulo Garabini based in Imperia ( next bay E folks from San Remo ) is your MAN man in the area .
They regularly attend all the marinas on that strip inc into France .No prizes for guessing why French based boats import Italian engineers .

You could e Mail him or speak to him about more details of which is which future buying prospect wise .
You never know if it’s a local boat he might know it .
They like the 2876 Le 401s , which I have .ask him what he does not like and why ?

Ps there was a SL 57 for sale in Alsassio , I think it’s still there berthed against the outer sea wall .
 

prinex

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2015
Messages
59
I asked my Volvo mechanic today what he thinks of MAN engines and costs compared to my volvos and he said don't worry too much as long as the engine was taken care of you will be fine - and also mentioned Garabini as a great MAN guy so we have the mechanic at least :)

Impressive how much AF makes a difference, and also the data on fuel consumption at planing speed, I never found a SL62 fuel consumption sheet (I guess there is a reason) .... no wonder everyone is doing displacement and a bit of speed every now and then. The only place I see often larger boats planing is when I cruise around Saint Tropez .... other budgets I guess.

Last 62 I saw for sale around was a 1996 in Monaco, he asked 250K (boat had some updates as far I could tell, electronic "manette" etc) but it was taken off market beginning of summer - so either sold or he decided to have an holiday.
Newer 62s - there is another one (I think 2006/7) also in Monaco but 640K Euro ... out of my league anyway and the depreciation alone makes me shudder.

Will be interesting to see what will be on the market after this summer.

Thanks for the tip of Alassio, time to grab my bike and have a drive down there !
 
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