Chris_Robb
Well-known member
And why not?
HMRC U-turn on tax on returning boats
- Thread starter goeasy123
- Start date
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
4pm LT ,When is it on? Load of rubbish last time with scare mongering...... can you heckle them?
Chris see posting 172 question for you .
GTom
Well-known member
The prophecy says that where you are at the end of TP, defines your VAT status. Within the EU VAT area, you keep your EU VAT paid status, outside you loose it.
Doesn't make sense to me, as normally you are allowed 3 years absence from EU VAT territory before you loose your status, why would it be reduced to 0 sec for that day? Anyway, several topics discussed the
issue here, referring to the Cruising Association which got the information from an EU-source.
All unclear though as the entire Brexsh.t ordeal.
nortada
Well-known member
Your last sentence - Careful dear, your slip is showing.
Seem to recall that this thread started out discussing HMRC's (infamous) U-turn on returning (UK VAT paid) boats (to the UK) so nothing to do with Brexit
Don't think the EU's policy on returning boats has changed; just, with effect from 1/1/21, the UK's status with the EU will have.
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GTom
Well-known member
Until now they (were supposed to) follow the general EU procedure to apply the 3 year rule in case someone was away longer. Obviously Brexit made them to turn their U-boats. err, turn their boats U...Your last sentence - Careful dear, your slip is showing.
Seem to recall that this thread started out discussing HMRC U-turn on returning boats (to the UK) so nothing to do with Brexit
nortada
Well-known member
When in the EU followed EU procedures. Thereafter, (HMRC) free to modify rules or make up their own - nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.
Reading comments here by those who actually have experience in this field, they seem remarkably relaxed - as am I.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Vic - three year runs from when you for instance sail to Turkey from Greece. Each time you come back within that time you reset the clock. In theory RGR will get you back in, but the applicant may require residency. This is a question we are asking.
None of us can believe that that the RYAs belief that the 3 years for us starts when you left the UK..., ie 10 years ago for me, however does it really matter, as your RGR right to reimport it provided it still conforms to the rules, ie
- Private Owner
- Not changed hands during the time, so still in the same ownership as when it left the UK or EU (currently)
- No major refits or re-builds overseas, so must only be maintenance and running repairs
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
GTOM - the exact wording is if your vessel is in the UK Customs zone on 31st December it becomes UK Vat Paid goods. This then says - which has been confirmed , is that if you are anywhere else in the world - say Turkey, you have 3 years exemption on returning, from the date you left the EU Customs zone. So if you left on May 2018 and come back bu May 2021, you will still have EU VAT and UK VAT by you right of exemption. So you dont per se have to be IN the EU to retain it. The worry I have is that the Greeks will not brief their customs guys and they invent their own rules, which will differ by where you go to check in! Hence I would prefer to be in the EU at that date.
There are still a number of points to get confirmation, but they are fringe - both from the EU and HMRC.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Bit still not clear , not charge hand during the time ,
So If it changed hands in the EU than I take it RGR can still be claimed but if change hands out side the EU it's libel for VAT again that's if they don't change that . Correct ?
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Watches the RYA webiner,kept losing the volume, so didn't get it all .
Three thing come out of it
1 ... it seen HMC have said the boats returning back to the UK up to Dec 2021 will be able to claim RGR .( RYA still working on getting it to three years )
2.. as I and may other have been saying the TR2 is no prove VAT has been paid .
3 .. some country may not recognise the ICC if the boat flag isn't within the country that skipper is from .
In other words if you reflag your boat to say Greece or Spain then , Spain or Greece MAY not except the ICC .
but say your flag is British and your a British resident then your OK .
The rest was all basically no one know as yet ,
RYA members can write in with question .
Three thing come out of it
1 ... it seen HMC have said the boats returning back to the UK up to Dec 2021 will be able to claim RGR .( RYA still working on getting it to three years )
2.. as I and may other have been saying the TR2 is no prove VAT has been paid .
3 .. some country may not recognise the ICC if the boat flag isn't within the country that skipper is from .
In other words if you reflag your boat to say Greece or Spain then , Spain or Greece MAY not except the ICC .
but say your flag is British and your a British resident then your OK .
The rest was all basically no one know as yet ,
RYA members can write in with question .
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Vic. It if changes hands within the EU customs zone, it will be exported and returned by the new owner. Change of ownership out side EU customs zone always destroys the VAT. As it will when we are out.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
1. How can they blatantly ignore the law, which due to the great reform Bill is now in UK law. Red herring I think
2. T2L , and as HMRC been saying for years. It always was rubbish but it shut us up!
3. Not unsurprising. I would be fore yachts being registered in the country of ownership. Couldn't give a damn if some tax cheating bigger got his comeuppance!
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Sorry chris maybe I need to easy off the beer a bit .
" Change of ownership out side EU customs zone always destroys the VAT. As it will when we are out."
It didnt change hand out side the customs zone , it was within the customs zone when I brought it In 2018 .
It's clear if say I brought it in the US I would need to re export it or if it was purchased after 2020 in the EU .
GTom
Well-known member
Interesting. Except the boatyard, no one can prove that I was definitely in the UK Customs zone and eg. not on international waters or in the Caribbean on a specific date, certainly not a then 100% foreign customs officer.
Mistroma
Well-known member
Vic, I lost the link a couple of times but think I got most of it. A fair bit covered stuff we already know but there were points regarding HMRC's intentions and timing.
I know some people claim that RYA have the wrong end of the stick and are mistaken in some of their assertions. However, they were clear on their understanding of the following points.
Status of Goods
HMRC appear to have told the RYA that they intend to observe the 3 year limit rigorously wrt the Returned Goods Relief scheme. This seems to have happened with little warning and their previous position was pretty flexible. It also appears that they wanted to use the last date a boat could be proven to be in the UK rather than 31/12/2020.
I can see this being a big problem for anyone who bought a UK owned VAT paid boat in Europe this year with the intention of sailing back next spring.
RYA have already suggested a 3 year transitional arrangement and said that they had just received a reply from the UK Government. It indicated that a 1 year transition period may be possible. Unfortunately, they were not clear about the starting date of the extension. It might be either an extra year from the time a boat left the UK, 3 years from 31/12/22 or 3 years before 31/12/22. I might have picked this part up wrongly as it was still rather vague.
RYA were clear that a boat could lose VAT paid status if rules were not followed on return and VAT would be due a second time. The rules relate to things such as change of ownership, time outside UK and so on.
RYA also confirmed that Barnier's office had said that a UK boat already in EU at the end of this year will retain EU VAT status.
It would be a good idea to check the RYA web-site. www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/RYA-and-British-Marine-joint-statement-on-Brexit-discussions-with-HMRC.aspx
I think that some of this information may not be on the RYA site yet but should be updated fairly quickly. It does seem to be an ongoing process with HMRC or UK Government representatives replying to the RYA's queries and comments.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
@Mistroma
Mike I watch the RYA webiner although I did lost sound at times ,
I have to say they where very vague on a lot of it but I don't think its they fault I think any organisation be it the RYA or the CA who ask the same question would had got the same reply from the government and HMRC and be just as vague at this point of time .
I know even when I owned HMRC money and try and sort thing out it's like putting teeth getting an answer from them .
My question to chris although I got no intention of bring my boat back to the UK .
I still don't quite understand the answer .
The rule is if the boat was export and changed hand while exported the RGR rule dont apply , that straight forward , that's is as clear as day light .
BUT
Surly when a item is moved from one EU country to another there no export is involved, it's all within the EU ?
and as we was in the EU at that time and the boat was brought in the EU how can they say it's changed hand while it's been exported .
What am I missing ?
Are they saying any goods moved from the UK to any other part of the EU while the UK was part of the EU is counted as goods been exported ?
If at any point someone say in the same position as me wanted to go back to the uk sail there for a season then return back to the EU they would be Fu@k as it mean just for one season sailing they would have to paid VAT a second time .
Mike I watch the RYA webiner although I did lost sound at times ,
I have to say they where very vague on a lot of it but I don't think its they fault I think any organisation be it the RYA or the CA who ask the same question would had got the same reply from the government and HMRC and be just as vague at this point of time .
I know even when I owned HMRC money and try and sort thing out it's like putting teeth getting an answer from them .
My question to chris although I got no intention of bring my boat back to the UK .
I still don't quite understand the answer .
The rule is if the boat was export and changed hand while exported the RGR rule dont apply , that straight forward , that's is as clear as day light .
BUT
Surly when a item is moved from one EU country to another there no export is involved, it's all within the EU ?
and as we was in the EU at that time and the boat was brought in the EU how can they say it's changed hand while it's been exported .
What am I missing ?
Are they saying any goods moved from the UK to any other part of the EU while the UK was part of the EU is counted as goods been exported ?
If at any point someone say in the same position as me wanted to go back to the uk sail there for a season then return back to the EU they would be Fu@k as it mean just for one season sailing they would have to paid VAT a second time .
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nortada
Well-known member
Does this apply to just boats or everything returning to the UK
I see some interesting class actions coming over the hill.?
Bovvered
Me?Nah, never intended to take this boat back to the UK.?
Bye England?
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sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I don't think many would go back even before this , has I personally know most get as far as Greece and they stay there or sell their boat there ,Does this apply to just boats or everything returning to the UK
I see some interesting class actions coming over the hill.?
Bovvered
Nah, never intended to take this boat back to the UK.?
Bye England?
not many cruisers like our selfs who do move around and it be them cruisers who may had sailed their boat back to the UK one day but that's not going to happen now.
I just can't get my head around this export stuff , I can't see how they can say a boat been exported when it staying within the EU especially has it was not registered in any one country other then its own country ,
In which case then changing owner should effect the RGR rules .
Bit like buying a boat in the UK , doesn't that mean VAT is due a second time ? ( it's not been exported it stayed within the EU and it changed ownership within the EU)
nortada
Well-known member
Agree, it would appear that HMRC is using Brexit as an excuse to re-write their rule book.
Will some EU countries take a leaf out of the HMRC Manual on - How to Screw People - and start insisting on proof that your vessel was imported into the EU, VAT paid
Back to T2L??
Wonder how long before DVLC get in on the act and only allow vessels that are physically in UK Waters to be on the SSR
Then there is insurance for boats not in UK Waters
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Graham376
Well-known member
If I understand correctly - HMRC are saying they will enforce RTR rigorously but that doesn't necessarily follow that the time extension allowed in current rules won't still apply for those who personally took their boats out of the UK and return them. The change appears to be the date at which the export took place.
I does however appear that anyone who has bought a boat in the EU will not be able to claim UK RTR unless they have in the meantime already been back to the UK with it. I don't understand how they can change the law retrospectively as the UK and EU were (still are until 31/12) one territory with goods in free movement, when the boat was purchased.
For those of us who have no intention of returning our boats to the UK, I don't see any problems and we may even find our boats are worth more in a larger market with EU VAT paid status. But, what will happen to UK residents with a boat purchased and based in EU, if they visit the UK? Will they be able to use temporary import rules or, be nailed for import duties/VAT?
I does however appear that anyone who has bought a boat in the EU will not be able to claim UK RTR unless they have in the meantime already been back to the UK with it. I don't understand how they can change the law retrospectively as the UK and EU were (still are until 31/12) one territory with goods in free movement, when the boat was purchased.
For those of us who have no intention of returning our boats to the UK, I don't see any problems and we may even find our boats are worth more in a larger market with EU VAT paid status. But, what will happen to UK residents with a boat purchased and based in EU, if they visit the UK? Will they be able to use temporary import rules or, be nailed for import duties/VAT?