Help wanted on Yorkshire Cobble

[dmayes]

I am trying to renovate a Yorkshire Cobble.
Approx 16 feet long and bought as a sailing boat. There is a problem with the standing rigging. The mast sits 12 feet forward of the stern, forestay is 3 feet 5 inches forward of the mast, the bow is another 9 inches past that. The side stays are mounted 2 feet two inches behind the centre line where the mast is positioned and 3 feet direct line to the mast, the beam at the point where the side stays are fitted is 4 feet 5 inches. The height of the mast is 11 feet above gunwale line. At the moment, with the forestay at 0 degrees the side stays are at 135 degrees and 225 degrees respectively making the angle between the two side stays 90 degrees. If I change the side stays so that they are at 120 degrees around the mast then because of the beam at that point the side stays will be at a narrower angle to the top of the mast than the forestay, increasing the load on the stay and the top of the mast. If the sails push the boat forward then should the angle of the side stays be different to give better pulling power backwards at the top of the mast?
This has a dipping lug rig and square sail, the side stay attachment points are just eye bolts fitted through the gunwale, which admittedly is quite strong but is it strong enough? I would like to fit some chain plates closer to what I think is the correct angle. Should the standing rigging be placed at 120 degrees each as seems to be the case on the dinghy’s I have seen and checked?
If I change the side stays so that they are at 120 degrees around the mast then the side stays will be at a narrower angle to the top of the mast increasing the load on the stay and the top of the mast. If the sails push the boat forward then should the angle of the side stays be different to give better pulling power backwards?
The boat also has no lifting keel, the centre keel is virtually full length and the two side keels are about three quarter length but each one is only about three inches deep. While on the trailer, the draft seems to be only about 10 inches. Will this just blow sideways in any sort of wind?
I strongly suspect that this boat was not a sailing boat to start with and someone has bought the rig and tried to fit it, not very well in my opinion. Any opinions welcome.

 

[Twister_Ken]

No real wisdom, except to say that:

a) trad boat rigging is generally not wound up very tight, so don't worry too much about beefy chainplates

b) the rig and the 'keel' won't allow race-winning windward ability so a tight forestay is not required

c) if you bring the shrouds back too far, you wont be able to square the sail off very far when going downwind

d) an 11' ft mast on a 16' boat doesn't sound like a powerful rig - see a) above.

e) you might get better answers on the Classic Boat forum

My take, it's a boat that sails across and downwind, but is rowed or motored to windward.

 

[Poignard]

Good excuse to spend a pleasant few days in the Whitby, Staithes, Robin Hood's Bay area, researching in local museums and talking to boat builders and old fishermen (although the latter would have to be extremely old to remember sailing cobles, I think!). Last time I was in Hornsea there was at least one wooden coble in the boat park, presumably not in sailing trim any more but the positions of chainplates etc. might still be evident.

When I were a lad, fishermen used to congregate in the 'Cod and Lobster' at Staithes on Sundays, after singing hymns on the quay, but the place is probably inhabited by 'second-homers' nowadays. The fishermen were all called either Verrill or Theaker; but the place was rather cut off in those days.

 

[electrosys]

I've attached a sailplan of 'Eliza'. It shows the shrouds as being running stays, as well as the marked rake of the mast.
The long rudder acts somewhat like a centreboard, which together with the two long 'drafts' acted to prevent leeway. Jibs were only employed on the larger cobles. Hope this helps.

 

[aquaplane]

I found this on a traditional boat site:

There is quite a bit if you Google fishing coble

 

[dmayes]

Info

Eliza looks very like the one I am working on except mine has no bowsprit and my sail attaches to the bottom of the mast. The angle sets the top yard up OK but with the sail fully hoisted the foot of the sail is a couple of inches below the gunwale. I would like about 12 to 18 inches of gap between the foot of the sail and the gunwale. Does this mean my mast is too short? With the sail held out as if downwind the top yard pushes on the shrouds quite a bit.

 

[reginaldon]

Good excuse to spend a pleasant few days in the Whitby, Staithes, Robin Hood's Bay area, researching in local museums and talking to boat builders and old fishermen (although the latter would have to be extremely old to remember sailing cobles, I think!). Last time I was in Hornsea there was at least one wooden coble in the boat park, presumably not in sailing trim any more but the positions of chainplates etc. might still be evident.

When I were a lad, fishermen used to congregate in the 'Cod and Lobster' at Staithes on Sundays, after singing hymns on the quay, but the place is probably inhabited by 'second-homers' nowadays. The fishermen were all called either Verrill or Theaker; but the place was rather cut off in those days.

Wish I'd been there! Did stay in Nov.'47 in between Youth Hostelling and bought a penn'orth of chips and a twopenny fish; Mam told me locals knew it as Steers at one time.
Thinking of heading up that way again soon. Sutcliffe photo'd a fisherman Verrill in Staithes.

Trip down Nostalgia Lane over!

 

[Alfie168]

Wish I'd been there! Did stay in Nov.'47 in between Youth Hostelling and bought a penn'orth of chips and a twopenny fish; Mam told me locals knew it as Steers at one time.
Thinking of heading up that way again soon. Sutcliffe photo'd a fisherman Verrill in Staithes.

Trip down Nostalgia Lane over!

I think the local pronounciation would have been more like Steathes.with a very slight inflection between the E and the A..as in Stee-Aths..which might sound a bit like Steers at times.

I had a drink a few weeks back with my fathers old business partner who lives near Robin Hoods Bay. His great great grandfather had three ships out of Whitby in the mid-late 19thC.

Tim

 

[reginaldon]

I think the local pronounciation would have been more like Steathes.with a very slight inflection between the E and the A..as in Stee-Aths..which might sound a bit like Steers at times.

I had a drink a few weeks back with my fathers old business partner who lives near Robin Hoods Bay. His great great grandfather had three ships out of Whitby in the mid-late 19thC.

Tim

Tim, carrying on with our Thread Drift: my great grandfather was a Whitby whaler and my (maternal) grandfather was apprenticed in sail out of Hartlepool, living in Church St. Whitby at the time - I do have his indentures. My mother did have a coasting voyage with him, whilst she was still at school - by this time they all lived in Middlesbrough.

 

[NickRobinson]

Definitely Steers

My Dad was born in Loftus, just up the cliff, I've got his indentures too!

Steers was his pronunciation and when he moved to West Hartlepool and bought a coble he pronounced it cobble, apparently they only become coooohbles north of the Tyne....

Must get some work done!

Nick

 

[Poignard]

More thread drift

Tim, carrying on with our Thread Drift: my great grandfather was a Whitby whaler

I have an interesting (well I thought it was) book called 'The Arctic Whaler', by Basil Lubbock, that describes the history British whaling industry from its beginnings up to the end of the 19th century. Worth a read, if you can get hold of a copy.

Also, the Whaling Museum in Hull is worth a visit.

 

[prv]

Eliza looks very like the one I am working on except mine has no bowsprit and my sail attaches to the bottom of the mast. [...] With the sail held out as if downwind the top yard pushes on the shrouds quite a bit.

With the tack at the foot of the mast rather than in front of it, would that not be a standing lug rather than a dipping lug?

As for pushing on the shrouds, I thought this is why luggers (dipping luggers, anyway) didn't have shrouds as such. The halyard would be led to the windward side for each tack, and used as a kind of shroud, while the luff of the sail acted as a forestay to the stemhead. Bigger ones would have second shroud to complement the halyard, but also movable from one side to the other.

There's a couple of people on here who sail luggers; sure they'll be able to help.

Pete

 

[boomerangben]

I can't profess to know any of your answers, but having sailed on (a quite different) traditional open fishing boat with a dipping lug, here are some thoughts.....

The Sgoth from the Western Isles was bourne of similar requirements - seaworthy boat to sail fast from poor shelter has a dipping lug but no standing rigging. The halyard is made off aft of the mast on the weather side, holding the sail and the mast up.

The tack on the Sgoth is secured to a hook just inboard or outboard of the stem. If you moved the tack to the stem might that lift the foot of the sail up a bit?

The long, raked rudder and deep fore foot should give reasonable resistance to leeway.

 

[dmayes]

Decisions

Thanks for the replies, having thought about it I am going to raise the mast by about 18 inches by building up the step in the hull, move the side chainplates forward somewhere between where they are now to where they would be if set to 120 degrees and try it out with the sail I have.

 

[TamarMike]

If I understand you correctly you have a standing lug sail. With the traditional dipping lug your boat would basically have an unstayed mast but with the halyard set to windward. With standing lug your forestay simply compensates for the tack being further aft. I wouldn't therefore worry too much about the angles of the shrouds to the mast so long as they don't foul the sail or yard.

 

[TamarMike]

Further thoughts now I'm home...

Eliza looks very like the one I am working on except mine has no bowsprit and my sail attaches to the bottom of the mast. The angle sets the top yard up OK but with the sail fully hoisted the foot of the sail is a couple of inches below the gunwale. I would like about 12 to 18 inches of gap between the foot of the sail and the gunwale. Does this mean my mast is too short? With the sail held out as if downwind the top yard pushes on the shrouds quite a bit.

Here's a 1955 photo (also from the The Chatham Directory of Inshore Craft like the drawing of Eliza) of the Filey coble "Joan and Robin" with a high clew which the caption describes as typical. Note the tack hooked to a tack rope secured athwartships. The drawing of the approx. 25 ft Flamboro'-type coble "Eliza" appears to show the alternative arrangement of securing the tack to a hook on the weather gunwale.

Do you know if your boat was ever sailed with the rig you describe? As you suggest the yard will foul the shrouds off the wind I think you are correct in thinking they should be further forward. I would also have doubts about its ability to tack through the wind with a standing lug but no jib. Although it was normally bigger cobles which set a bowsprit you might find it necessary to fit one with a smallish jib capable of being backed to get the bows through the wind.

11' seems a very short mast for a 16' boat, luggers normally had the mast the same length as the length of the boat (so it could be stowed aboard). Have you checked that the yard doesn't foul the forestay when tacking with the sail standing? Rather than raising the mast step a new mast of the correct length could be made quite economically from a length of solid spruce. A high mast step is putting more reliance on the stays and make the mast harder to raise and lower.

I would be interested to know how the dipping lug was tacked on cobles. The photo of Joan and Robin shows the end of the halyard attached to the traveller coming from the front of the masthead sheave so I assume the yard must either have been dipped around the front of mast (doesn't look so easy, particularly on the larger ones 30' to 40', bearing in mind the rake) or dropped entirely then shifted across (my guess for what it is worth).

 

[dmayes]

Lug sail

Thanks TaymarMike. When raised my top yard sets about the same angle as the forestay so it does appear to tack round. There is not a lot of sail forward of the mast and with the halyard attached one third from the front when I lower the sail the rear of the yard comes down first making it awkward to get the yard around the other side of the mast efficiently. Looks as if it should be a standing lug with one favorable tack. The mast is currently set into a hollow in the bottom of the hull so raising that point would not be much of a problem. I will see if I can attach a picture tomorrow so you can get an idea of my rig.