Bavaria lost keel again

[Annabell]

A well maintained Bavaria 390 Lagoon lost her keel in the middle of the Atlantic on 22. May 2012. Just the waves were enough to separate the keel from the hull. The danish Sailing Vessel "Petra" was on her way back to Europe when 650 sm northeast of Bermuda without warning the keel fall off their boat. The crew could be rescued.
For more info please check www: noonsite and www: sy-petra.dk

 

[lenseman]

The actual Mayday message was transmitted at 1608Z on the 19 May, two days earlier than your report, where there location was given as 34° 40'N 053° 15'W.

There were two people onboard.

 

[charles_reed]

Before people indulge their prejudices (and I don't have a Bavaria) I wonder how hard the grounding was, that they'd previously had?

 

[Koeketiene]

Before people indulge their prejudices (and I don't have a Bavaria) I wonder how hard the grounding was, that they'd previously had?

How many times does a thing like this need to happen to a Bavaria before it ceases to be a prejudice?

 

[charles_reed]

How many times does a thing like this need to happen to a Bavaria before it ceases to be a prejudice?

probability, sir, there's one hell of a lot of them out there and many driven pretty incompetently.
You do, in this life, get what you pay for and Bavarias are not (well) over-engineered.
But treated carefully, they're perfectly reasonable boats for the majority, who just want a cottage in the marina and eschew sailing in more than an F3.

 

[Talulah]

The yacht is from 1990. It's pretty well travelled.
This report can be read several ways depending upon how the boat was maintained.
1. The keel bolts lasted 22 years with no maintenance.
or
2. The keel bolts failed even though the boat was well maintained.

It would be nice to know how the keel failed.
Whilst there are many boats out there older than this one with keels still bolted on without maintenance this boat will have had significantly more bending actions than most due to the use it's been put through.
My conclusions would be:
1. Bolts were worn out and should have been replaced
or
2. Keel bolts fine but significant grounding in their history.
or
3. Repetitive drying out where loads were not distributed evenly.

I'm sure others may have suggestions but I wouldn't be prejudicing this as a Bavaria issue.
Unless the hull laminate failed.

 

[Tranona]

probability, sir, there's one hell of a lot of them out there and many driven pretty incompetently.
You do, in this life, get what you pay for and Bavarias are not (well) over-engineered.
But treated carefully, they're perfectly reasonable boats for the majority, who just want a cottage in the marina and eschew sailing in more than an F3.

Think there are many of the thousands of Bavaria owners who sail all round the world in who would completely disagree with such patronising and untrue statements.

BTW the Bavaria under discussion, as has been pointed out, is more than 20 years old, was built to Germanischer Lloyds and in its day was considered a very high quality boat, selling in the same market space as boats such as HR.

You have no idea how the boat has been used (other than it is well travelled), who was sailing it nor what the cause of the failure was, so how can you make any meaningful comment?

 

[jaba]

BTW the Bavaria under discussion, as has been pointed out, is more than 20 years old, was built to Germanischer Lloyds and in its day was considered a very high quality boat, selling in the same market space as boats such as HR.

+1

 

[jordanbasset]

Think there are many of the thousands of Bavaria owners who sail all round the world in who would completely disagree with such patronising and untrue statements.

BTW the Bavaria under discussion, as has been pointed out, is more than 20 years old, was built to Germanischer Lloyds and in its day was considered a very high quality boat, selling in the same market space as boats such as HR.

You have no idea how the boat has been used (other than it is well travelled), who was sailing it nor what the cause of the failure was, so how can you make any meaningful comment?

+2, what a silly statement for the other poster to make

 

[vyv_cox]

The yacht is from 1990. It's pretty well travelled.
This report can be read several ways depending upon how the boat was maintained.
1. The keel bolts lasted 22 years with no maintenance.
or
2. The keel bolts failed even though the boat was well maintained.

It would be nice to know how the keel failed.
Whilst there are many boats out there older than this one with keels still bolted on without maintenance this boat will have had significantly more bending actions than most due to the use it's been put through.
My conclusions would be:
1. Bolts were worn out and should have been replaced
or
2. Keel bolts fine but significant grounding in their history.
or
3. Repetitive drying out where loads were not distributed evenly.

I'm sure others may have suggestions but I wouldn't be prejudicing this as a Bavaria issue.
Unless the hull laminate failed.

Unless you know a lot more than the noonsite report says, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions at all. Your 1. - how do bolts 'wear out'? 2. and 3. Where has this come from? And how do they make any difference?

There are many possibilities, none of which we know.

 

[Talulah]

Unless you know a lot more than the noonsite report says, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions at all. Your 1. - how do bolts 'wear out'? 2. and 3. Where has this come from? And how do they make any difference?

There are many possibilities, none of which we know.

Exactly. My conclusions were basically how could you loose a keel? There are many scenarios and I suggested others may have their own ideas.

 

[Monique]

+ Lots...

Mine is to Lloyds 100 as well, cost a pile and a half of moolah too.

I was asked by an HR owner last week if she was a Swan!!!

Mine is well built but again, too many lost keels recently. This is the first instance of an early Bav I've heard losing its keel.

 

[jordanbasset]

+ Lots...

Mine is to Lloyds 100 as well, cost a pile and a half of moolah too.

I was asked by an HR owner last week if she was a Swan!!!

Mine is well built but again, too many lost keels recently. This is the first instance of an early Bav I've heard losing its keel.

Not sure you are talking generally or specifically about Bavarias, as I am not aware of s sudden spate of Bavaria's losing their keel.
Found this info http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/lost-keels-request-information-39377.html
"#1--number two to follow as edit time expires

Since I can't find a list of lost keels anywhere I've decided-hopefully with your help-to create a list. This is what I have so far-any corrections or additions would be most helpfull:

Fixed Keels/bulbs:
1) Drum-lost keel in Fastnet-Simon le bon- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
2) Holland 67- Charley- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
3) Martella(of Finland) 89 Whitbred- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
4) Warriors Wish-Ronnie Simmons- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623 more info helpful
5) Coyote(20 years ago) http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailin...rokenseas5.htm
6) Wasabi-18 days ago http://www.cyca.com.au/newsDetail.asp?key=5347
7) Strewth TP 52 March 22, 2008 Rolex China Sea Race http://sailjuiceblog.com/tag/strewth/
8) Cheminee Poujoukat Armor Lux-need more info
9) Heatwave J-80 http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...3-30&dayid=251
10) Excaliber-need more info
11) Excide Challenger 1997 Tony Bullimore-need info
12) Bavaria Match 42 about 2005 Bavaria Match 42 lost its keel...
13) Cape Fear 38 http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
14) Moquini http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
15) Hooligan V http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...-for-oversight
16) VM Materiaux-keel bulb -day 58 Vendee -Jean le Cam- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
17) Pandemonium, Nelson-Marek 66 lost keel on return from 89 Transpac, http://www.iataia.com.mx/modules/06-...ai/results.htm
18) 37' Jenneau lost ballast keel 2002. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/genera...st-keel-2.html
19) Time to Burn - BBW 52
http://maritimenz.govt.nz/Publicatio...report2008.pdf
20) Espana92 AC boat--see pdf below


-----
May be canting keels--need more info:
1) Veolia Environment day 85 Vendee-Roland Jourdain- http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...8-17&dayid=623
2) Duracell- Mike Plant- Vendee
3) Skandia- Nick Moloney-Vendee
-----
Canting Keels:
1) Rambler Fastnet 2011
2) Shock 40 inshore race-need more info
3) Ericsson VOR 05-06- need more info
4) Skandia-Sydney Hobart 2004
5) Le Cam -transat-need more info
6) Ecover-Mike Golding-need more info"

This does not appear to be a particular Bavaria problem, especially bearing in mind the large numbers of them about. I am also aware there must be more Bavaria's who have lost keels than reported here, just as there are more of other makes of boats who have lost keels. Indeed in the link attached it refers to other boats losing their keels, just do not understand how any conclusions can be made one way or the other based on the historical record. As to the particular Bavaria in question on this thread no one here knows the circumstances about it one way or the other.

 

[maby]

It's certainly not only Bavaria that have dropped a few keels, but I do wonder how well bonded Bav keels are. We came close to buying one tht was just a few years old last year. During the sea trial, the owner mentioned that he had lightly grounded her a the year before - we didn't worry. During the survey, it became clear that the keel joint was leaking and all the keel bolts had started to rust. This was a boat about five years old.

We ended up buying a new Jeanneau. Interestingly, there was a report a month or two ago about a Sun Odyssey charter boat that was taken back to the charter company by a customer who complained that it was not handling very well. On inspection it became clear that the keel was missing - a previous customer admitted to having grounded it heavily a month or two earlier and a diver at the reported location found it on the bottom. Two other customers had chartered it in the intervening period without complaining! That's what you call form stability!

 

[Tranona]

Doubt it was the keel bolts that were "rusting" as they are stainless. More likely rust bleeding from an exposed face of the iron keel. That sort of rust like blood from a minor cut goes a long way.

There are many examples of bolted on fin keels that give problems on all sorts of boats, caused by poor structure or most likely grounding, which in turn can cause structural damage. There was a long thread here recently about keel problems on Sigmas - well known because the keels are poorly secured at the forward end and hitting things does them no good. The keels crack and bolts pull out. NOT Sigma knocking, just illustrating that fin keels are often highly stressed and it is not easy to make them strong enough to withstand groundings.

It actually amazes me how well engineered most fin keels are and how little trouble they really give. Same with spade rudders - once the forces are understood it is possible to design them to be secure.

 

[jaba]

It's certainly not only Bavaria that have dropped a few keels, but I do wonder how well bonded Bav keels are. We came close to buying one tht was just a few years old last year.

Bavaria Lagoon were of a different ilk.

(no prejudice against "modern" Bavaria implied)

 

[maby]

Doubt it was the keel bolts that were "rusting" as they are stainless. More likely rust bleeding from an exposed face of the iron keel. That sort of rust like blood from a minor cut goes a long way.

....

I'm sure you are right about the bolts - the visible rust seemed to be on the washers and nuts - they certainly did not appear to be stainless.

 

[maby]

Bavaria Lagoon were of a different ilk.

(no prejudice against "modern" Bavaria implied)

It did surprise me since, when we first got involved in sailing a surveyor had told us that Bavarias were the make on which he found fewest problems.

 

[noelex]

Doubt it was the keel bolts that were "rusting" as they are stainless. More likely rust bleeding from an exposed face of the iron keel. That sort of rust like blood from a minor cut goes a long way.

There are many examples of bolted on fin keels that give problems on all sorts of boats, caused by poor structure or most likely grounding, which in turn can cause structural damage. There was a long thread here recently about keel problems on Sigmas - well known because the keels are poorly secured at the forward end and hitting things does them no good. The keels crack and bolts pull out. NOT Sigma knocking, just illustrating that fin keels are often highly stressed and it is not easy to make them strong enough to withstand groundings.

It actually amazes me how well engineered most fin keels are and how little trouble they really give. Same with spade rudders - once the forces are understood it is possible to design them to be secure.

The common stainless steels are prone to crevice corrosion. They have been described as a very poor ( although common) choice of material for keel bolts. It always seems a pity when many boat problems could be solved if buyers were prepared to pay few dollars more.

 

[Tranona]

It did surprise me since, when we first got involved in sailing a surveyor had told us that Bavarias were the make on which he found fewest problems.

Exactly. That was one of the deciding factors when we bought ours. Two surveyors said the same thing and one had done the factory tour on behalf of a client. 12 years down the line and still have the same view (give or take a couple of little niggles).