Yurkey & Discharges

[grumpygit]

I Foresee Turkish Authorities "Killing of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg"
Are they aware of just how much money is generated by Visiting and resident yachtsmen? Is there some kind of macabre vendetta against yachtsmen and yachting!
Tourism Turkey would face a Sad Dilemma if there was a mass exodus of yachts from their shores from their marinas?
What of the 2000.s or more of small Turkish Fishing boats where do Turkish Authoritarians think they dispose of their Waste? Try sitting on side and doing it straight into the Sea! No Holding tanks on these boats?
Pollution is not just a problem of polluting the "Sea's" Wake up Turkey!
Try following Jeep Safaris see the **** they strew throughout the routes they take tourists on! inside the Forest's and the roadsides! See the Garbage they leave on there way through your Forests!
Holiday makers"Turkish" that come in their droves by Cars Picnicking setting up base Camps in Bays! from one end of Coastal waters to the Other! whole families and after spending a Day on the beaches leave! and how they leave! Leaving behind all their "Cop" To go where? First winds First Rains into the Sea's streams or rivers! Just check the beaches where do Authorities think all this garbage comes from! In Fact where do Turkish Authorities think they go to use a Toilet? Families all day sitting on a Beach?
Garbage that is collecting on all Turkeys wonderful beaches? Even beaches that can not be got to from roads! Now small fisher boats bring Families to out of the way beaches! Where do they do their Business? On the beach in the woods ok! if there is Rain but in summer this turns beaches into evil smelling places is this acceptable?
How about implementing the same Fines against Polluters of the Coast and Forestry? and Beaches? Why is this law implemented against just yachtsmen?
Is there a Bias against Yachtsmen?
Try a 35.000YTL for illegal dumping of garbage? To all who break the law!
Oh! no laws against Pollution outside of the Sea Well Turkey pass one!It appears you can pass laws concerning the Sea over night!
Its two way Traffic!
I reported to Jandama an area being used to illegally Dump! Jandama Officer told me what can we do? There are no laws about this?
I told him this is totally unacceptable!
Fethyie "Wall Bay" Or better still re-name it "Dump Bay"? and you think this garbage accumulated or dumped by yachtsmen "Think Again" Try Locals?
Pollution of land of our Seas of our Forests is a Crime! make it Punishable for all!
DO NOT PERSECUTE THE YACHTSMAN! Anyone who Pollutes.
That goes for Turkish boats and Tourists boats.
If Turkey wishes to stop pollution! Maybe they should Start with their lands first! Implement Pump out stations from one end of Turkish Coast to the Other, Then implement the Laws, Not the other way round You do not put the "Horse before the Cart" Infer structure or Floating Pump out stations based up and down the coast and not just for Yachtsmen but all sea users, One very upset Yachtsman who came here in 1979 and all but started Tourism to Turkey a founder Member of the Marmaris yacht Club Skip

Welcome, You've hit the nail fair and square on the head, very well summarised and I endorse your sentiments 100%

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[Chris_Robb]

Correct John, CA are negotiating on our behalf with the authorities. It'll take time to hear any results though - goverments and ministries are slow to respond.

An important point raised is that MARPOL regulations allow large vessels to discharge sewage when more than 12nm from the coast, and this option appears not to have been considered in framing the proposed rules.

Jim - presumably if you want to go and discharge 12 miles out to sea you can, BUT will you not have to officially "leave" Turkey each time and sign off with the port police?

 

[vyv_cox]

Jim - presumably if you want to go and discharge 12 miles out to sea you can, BUT will you not have to officially "leave" Turkey each time and sign off with the port police?

As I read the new regulations, that won't work. The blue card shows the number and date of pump-outs. If you have remained in Turkish waters, by implication you must pump out at a certain frequency. This gets them around the possibility that a boat might only go 11.5 miles before discharging.

 

[Marsupial]

The Turks Law Knot

Correct John, CA are negotiating on our behalf with the authorities. It'll take time to hear any results though - goverments and ministries are slow to respond.

An important point raised is that MARPOL regulations allow large vessels to discharge sewage when more than 12nm from the coast, and this option appears not to have been considered in framing the proposed rules.

Sorry but yes it has - sort of - the Turks are clear that they intend to link the transit log with the blue card scheme - but that linkage not up and running yet - but Turkey only has a 6 mile limit, for reasons to do with free passage of their warships through the Bosphros. Turkey is not a signitory to various UN territorial waters initiatives. However, according to "international rules" States may inspect vessels outside of their territorial limits for reasons of pollution and sanitation. Therefore, despite what MARPOL says they can have a juristiction on any vessel they think is "polluting" or intending to polute their coastline even if its outside their claimed territorial limit.

A document I have seen, it was a reproduction of a legal edict in a newspaper, is clear that vessels are not allowed out of turkish waters unless a transit log is issued and any vessel with empty tanks and no transit log and no blue card stamp will be fined if discovered.

This for me is really bad news, I have no problem with skippers being fined for dumping tanks inside pretty bays or skopea limani for that matter - it is antisocial. But our routine was to sail offshore 6 miles every day or so dump the black, do the washing have a shower and return, both options are now outlawed, they want to control the number days and visits so "come and go" is forbidden and so is black and grey dumping in side and outside their waters. That coupled with the ban on auto bilge pumps means that we are unable to comply so our boat wont be in turkey this year.

I utterly agree that this "legislation" is poorly framed and difficult if not impossible for most to comply but its very easy to implement, from the enforcers perspective, ANY liquid or thing seen falling off or issuing from a boat is worthy of a fine.

My information for what it is worth is that at the moment there is no movement on the implimentation, the only concession so far is that we are allowed to put grey water in a black water tank.

Sorry Turkey but our hard earnt will be spent in Greece.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Sorry but yes it has - sort of - the Turks are clear that they intend to link the transit log with the blue card scheme - but that linkage not up and running yet - but Turkey only has a 6 mile limit, for reasons to do with free passage of their warships through the Bosphros. Turkey is not a signitory to various UN territorial waters initiatives. However, according to "international rules" States may inspect vessels outside of their territorial limits for reasons of pollution and sanitation. Therefore, despite what MARPOL says they can have a juristiction on any vessel they think is "polluting" or intending to polute their coastline even if its outside their claimed territorial limit.

A document I have seen, it was a reproduction of a legal edict in a newspaper, is clear that vessels are not allowed out of turkish waters unless a transit log is issued and any vessel with empty tanks and no transit log and no blue card stamp will be fined if discovered.

These dilemnas are exactly the ones being explored by the CA, together with the fact that many yachts will be unable to comply and would be forced to leave.

It's a sad fact that small yacht tourism adds very little to the economy compared to shore tourism, however valuable we like to think we are. And fewer small yachts means more space for Gulets and larger charter yachts, which bring in bigger spenders. So don't over estimate the economic arguments for meeting smaller yacht needs.

Meanwhile, Greece is frightening off the larger yachts . . . so a big swap may be in the offing!

 

[Marsupial]

Turkey Yacht Tourisum

Jim,

I don’t over estimate the economic effects of small yachts, but Turkey is building lots of marinas to accommodate them; it makes no sense to discourage them. Also the effect on charter boats has not been thought through. Most of the charter boats I see are 40 – 50 ft bare boat; I am at a loss to understand why a skipper would bare boat charter in this area (Mugla) given that he would be in frame for a huge fine. As for flotillas, the wait while everyone pumps out would be unreasonable coupled with the risk of penalty for minor transgressions, given that a trip 6 miles off shore would meet most requirements (but is now illegal).

As for the hope that there will be high value charter to make up the shortfall, “exclusive” is buzz word around here (Fethiye), it translates to "high ticket value", however, I don’t see a great change in the standards here, (that’s not to say they're not acceptable but they are not exceptional; we call it "Shabby sheik") so attracting high ticket clients, consistently, is a challenge to say the least.

The new rules will undoubtedly hit the yachting infrastructure of Turkey IF cruising sailors boycott the region. This will be a great shame as many of the remote venues only accessible by sea will wither on the vine and die, others will have to increase their prices as fewer customers arrive and will eventually find that they have no customers either and they will also cease trading; this is a real possibility and will be a tremendous loss to both Turkey and the crusing yachtsmen.

The point I am trying to make is that the rules are not only going to affect the cruising yachtsman but they are potentially catastrophic for the Turkish yacht industry that currently services their needs.

My hope is that eventually Turkey will frame a set of rules that most yachtsmen can both agree with and comply with. The proposed set of rules are "gold plated" and if implemented will be to the detriment of the Marine Tourism Industry of Turkey and the interests of the cruising sailor.

David

 

[Chris_Robb]

David

I have been following this thread with interest.

One thing that has not really been talked about is what do the turks actually need to do to keep the polution under control. Could reasonable care by water borne fraternity improve things - or does it really need much stronger action to clean it up.

when I was there 8 years ago, things were sometimes a bit smelly in some of the bays.

 

[Marsupial]

David

I have been following this thread with interest.

One thing that has not really been talked about is what do the turks actually need to do to keep the polution under control. Could reasonable care by water borne fraternity improve things - or does it really need much stronger action to clean it up.

when I was there 8 years ago, things were sometimes a bit smelly in some of the bays.

That aspect of the whole issue is "unclear" to say the least. Its hard to imagine that the pollution problems are only sea based users, the rivers and streams that discharge into the bays are not treated but many are hooked up to dwellings and businesses shore side. The large mud bank in Fethiye bay is home to millions of crustaceans, the bank is located at the outlets of the two main rivers that discharges into the bay – we all know what crustaceans eat! These “mud” banks are growing fast and are giving cause for concern; soon the local boat taxi service will be unable to operate. When it rains hard here you can see the plume of brown water coming from the outlets and “silt” settling.

That said the volume of waste discharged from large tour boats is not insignificant, I don’t see many of them leaving the bay to dump their tanks and according to the Turkish media only 5 boats were pumped out last by the pump-out boats. They all use the town quay and there is no shore side pump out there. So there is an issue with large amounts of black water being dumped into the bays. As is often the case with “pollution” its too much bad material being dumped into a concentrated area that’s causing the stinky bays, if these guys changed their routes and went outside and a little offshore the problems would, to a great extent go away. However the shore side sanitary arrangements at the gullet destinations discharge into the bay. . . .

The media here have managed to convince many that the issue is all waterborne, I have spoken to many Turks about this issue and they are sure that yachts are the problem (these people are not seafarers in any way shape or form, but they do read their papers), then there was a famous article in 2006 that “proved beyond all doubt” that all the pollution was coming from yachts, this was obviously dubious research and dubious science with contrived conclusions but the ideas have stuck.

Its hard not to be cynical in this situation, foreign flagged yachts make up a tiny proportion, in terms of head count, of the problem, even if we include the contribution from chartered yachts the body count is low when compared to the shore based day trip quota, and yet the only place you will find the regulations and promise of huge fines is at the marinas writ large in three languages. However that all said, its their country and their rules.

One other big problem is the sheer number of agencies that claim jurisdiction over the sea, you have the central and local government, TURMEPA, the police, the sea police, customs and the coast guard, oh and the Ministry of Tourism to name but a few, sorry if I have missed any out – yes and the Passport police, there must be more. So the situation is complex. In this case TURMEPA have made some rules, central government have ratified them and now MUGLA are trying to live with them – or at least that’s my understanding.

Economically its hard to make a case for the new rules as there is no shortage of marina infrastructure so anything that deters occupancy however small must be a bad thing. A figure for you, last year Turkey claims 29 million tourists, that’s a big number by any measure but the impact of a few yachts is insignificant.

This year we have notice that there are many more gullets offered for sale and the there are gaps between them moored up on the quay, in previous years you would find it hard to put a fender down! Also there is a lot of space in local marinas, as I have said before these regulations are not made for economic purposes, there is another agenda at work.

As said before time will tell

 

[jimbaerselman]

The new rules will undoubtedly hit the yachting infrastructure of Turkey IF cruising sailors boycott the region. This will be a great shame as many of the remote venues only accessible by sea will wither on the vine and die, others will have to increase their prices as fewer customers arrive and will eventually find that they have no customers either and they will also cease trading; this is a real possibility and will be a tremendous loss to both Turkey and the crusing yachtsmen.

I'm in step with everything you say. For the quote above, a suitable strategy is to ensure the infrastructure businesses are aware of the problem (they are) and lobby on their own account.

Compared to two 3,000 berth cruise liners docking in Kusadasi per day (and whatever in Bodrum), we are peanuts though!

JimB

 

[Marsupial]

Compared to two 3,000 berth cruise liners docking in Kusadasi per day (and whatever in Bodrum), we are peanuts though!

JimB

agreed!

 

[philip17]

Replacing 1 pollution with another!!

I wonder if the "Ecology" team that dreamed up this new set of rules have calculated the effect to their carbon footprint. I think it would be quite difficult to effect a grey water holding tank system on a yacht without the use of onboard pump(s) and pumps need energy. There will probably be a larger volume of grey water to deal with than black water so again more energy will be required to pump out the tanks and also to process the grey water. Then of course we have the energy that was used to manufacure the new pump out stations that will have to be installed (probably some other industrial pollution as well). Then we have the fuel burnt by all of the different authorities that are going to police the scheme. So what does this increase in carbon give us? increased pollution of the sea due to an increase of acid in the rain.
Environmentally friendly? I don't think so

 

[Squeaky]

Good evening:

I notice that almost everyone uses the phrase "Turkey" and "Turkish government" when mentioning this law. I don't believe this is correct as I believe this law was published by the Governor of Mugla, not the central government. In fact with so much going on about coup plots I doubt if they even know about it but hope someone will tell them soon.

I remain of the opinion that this whole flap was organized by a group in Fethiye who have since seen a way to fill their pockets under the guise of doing "good" to protect the planet having succeeded in getting a large house boat moved from one of the bays. They have hooked up with TURPMA to give legitimacy to the project. TURPMA have been in existence for some time and probably welcomed the opportunity to find a "cause" to foster.

I do not believe that many people support this program but like so many it is difficulty to argue against "apple pie and motherhood".

Fortunately everything I hear leads me to believe it will not be enforced in it's present form.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[Appleyard]

Perhaps a whip round for the Governor of Mugla might solve the issue then!!!

 

[Jock89]

This new holding-tank legislation

'evening all,
This new Turkish legislation has got me worried.
I'm just starting to measure up for a new holding-tank with macerator & a new deck pump-out, & the email I've just received from the CA this afternoon tells me that even this isn't going to be enough.!
Although I was going to just couple up the forward head to a small holding-tank I'm now faced with coupling-up all 3 sinks & 2 heads into 1 massive holding-tank & this could probably double the outlay, which is already going to be well over £1000.
According to the CA this will be in force from March this year.
It seems so completely over-the-top that it's come as quite a shock, as I was planning to spend a lot of time in Turkey. Not sure what to do now. I was quite prepared to be as 'Green' & self-sufficient as I could be by having a new holding-tank & deck pump-out fitted at something like £1,500 but now it's going to be considerably more. I'm not impressed.!
Jock

 

[Andy and Lyn]

As someone in the "throws" of planning 2010 cruising and having read this thread (and others previously) it is not worth even considering Turkey on our agenda any further. As a leisure pursuit, to be faced with all this bureacracy and potential fines and litigation, it defeats the object.

Turkey has therefore been erased from our plans completely and alternatives now considered. As someone who has enjoyed Turkey immensely in the past I find it incredibly sad. That said without this impetus we may have never considered the North African coast - now we may!

Good -bye Turkey!

 

[Marsupial]

Good evening:

I notice that almost everyone uses the phrase "Turkey" and "Turkish government" when mentioning this law. I don't believe this is correct as I believe this law was published by the Governor of Mugla, not the central government. In fact with so much going on about coup plots I doubt if they even know about it but hope someone will tell them soon.

I remain of the opinion that this whole flap was organized by a group in Fethiye who have since seen a way to fill their pockets under the guise of doing "good" to protect the planet having succeeded in getting a large house boat moved from one of the bays. They have hooked up with TURPMA to give legitimacy to the project. TURPMA have been in existence for some time and probably welcomed the opportunity to find a "cause" to foster.

I do not believe that many people support this program but like so many it is difficulty to argue against "apple pie and motherhood".

Fortunately everything I hear leads me to believe it will not be enforced in it's present form.

Cheers

Squeaky

Hi Squeaky, whats the weather like up there, is blowing old boots down here and freezing!!

Yes Squeaky, I agree with your ideas re exactly who made the rules "do we know, does it matter?" but as to if or how it will be implemented it depends who I talk to. Clearly the rules are unpopular with gullet operators and a few lokanta owners, the marinas are in my experience sitting on the fence, on the one hand they stand to loose customers on the other hand they stand to make a fast buck pumping out tanks. I am not convinced that the yacht trade/marine industry/chandlery has thought about it. Other restaurant owners are not bothered, to them fewer boats means more punters shore side for them to exploit. I do know people within the system "who should know" or "are in the know" as these guys are quite clear that it will go ahead – but they would say that wouldn’t they. As with many things in Turkey much of what we hear is hearsay, second third fourth hand and often a wish list from the person that utters. I dearly wish this stuff will just go away because the only way I could comply involves converting my forward water tank to black and grey storage - no chance!

Will it go away, I dont know but my most independent sources from inside and outside MUGLA are consistent and, sorry to say, tell me its here for a while at least.

 

[Squeaky]

Good evening:

Marsupial: I don't doubt that you will hear lots of comments on this law as you are right in the middle of the hot spot and am sure that anyone connected with yachting will have heard of the law. There will be a difference of opinion also depending on the impact on their personal interests and those involved in reaping/raping the "cash cow" will be very positive.

To all the others worrying about the enforcement of this law, I can only suggest you wait and see what happens. There are hundreds of yachts in the Marmaris area and I doubt that more than 1% has gray AND black water tanks - understand that some American yachts do have two tanks especially if from East coast.

No one that I have met is taking any action to fit gray water therefore if the law is enforced absolute chaos will ensue. I doubt that these hundreds of yachts will immediately be able to fit gray water tanks (man power and engineering facilities won't be able to cope) nor head for Greece en masse.

Anyone in Greece now or even further west will have lots of warning if anything actually happens and can then take appropriate action.

It is almost impossible to fit two tanks and re-route all my hoses so I am going to wait and see what happens - actually don't have much alternative really.

If you have nothing else to do with your time, carry on worrying but if you have other things to do, sit back, relax and enjoy your winter months.

I think it was Mark Twain who said "I have worried about a lot of things, most of which never happened".

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[sailinglegend420]

We are still planning to visit Turkey this year, whilst we can, expecting that all this nonsense will not be implemented for a year or two.

Next year we will definately not be in Turkey!

 

[free1]

We are still planning to visit Turkey this year, whilst we can, expecting that all this nonsense will not be implemented for a year or two.

Next year we will definately not be in Turkey!

Hello
Please don`t hold your breath. This nonsense will be implemented this year Im`e afraid

 

[Squeaky]

Good evening:

Free1: Please advise what makes you so sure that you can make such a statement.

Are you in a position to know what you are talking about or do you think that we will all rush out and get busy installing gray tanks or get ready to leave Turkey on the basis of your assurance that the project will be implemented this year?

Would like to suggest that you take a few minutes to explain and provide some evidence to back up your view as so many others have done so well on this thread.

Cheers

Squeaky