Your ultimate boat: please show imagination, don't be a Wally.

[Neil_Y]

For me I still want one of these, I staid on her for a few nights while boat hitching back in the 80's lovely boat. Roger Martin Cetacea, built and finished by Geoffrey Palmer (a really nice bloke) I think he got it pretty close to spot on for a fast world cruiser.

http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio.php?item=41

 

[Twister_Ken]

It's the rig I find interesting, rather than the hull, but I'm curious why you think it's likely to be especially leaky?

Pete

It's old. It's wooden. It's got joints.

 

[prv]

It's old. It's wooden. It's got joints.

It's not that old (early 80s, I believe) and was built using almost ridiculously thick timbers (I've seen photos) by a US yard that normally made wooden tugboats. But it may well still leak a bit. I was only posting about the rig, which I would put on top of a leakproof metal hull.

Pete

 

[Frankie-H]

Horses for courses. We all have our own reasons and I have read all the above with great interest.

SWMBO & I have had this conversation many times over the years and have come to the conclusion that something slightly newer but otherwise not too far distant from our '81 Moody 42.

Teak decks. No way, seen too many with huge problems
Multi sails. No. Main & Mizzen. Twin headsails down wind.
Need for crew. No way. We do not like to share our home.
Space to live comfortably. Certainly, for 2, Any more is not encouraged!
Deep centre cockpit half enclosed by a hard cuddy. Essential.
Reasonable performance. Takes very heavy weather. Good thumping engine.
Cockpit tent over the rear of the cockpit. Gives us another room and air lock.
A seperate cabin perhaps, so that sewing, computing etc can be left out.

Saying all that I am so glad that there are people with enough money and enthusiasm to love and restore these wonderful old boats. I hope they will always be around for me to feast my eyes on. Lust certainly but would I like to own one. A resounding NO.

 

[JimC]

I would be quite happy with a heavier duty deck house;new gearbox and reconned engine for my Coaster 33-and a big electric winch-otherwise I am quite happy with what I have got.

Can I ask what's wrong with the deck house on the Coaster? I ask because the Coaster is a boat I've often admired: she looks ready for anything.

 

[Greenheart]

Gaff rig optional...

DigbyDog, I get the feeling we're at opposite ends of the same quarter-century of experience! I'm still full of enthusiasm to adopt the obligations involved in sailing an old-fashioned boat whose looks gladden the heart while they exhaust the caretaker.

Of course, your rationale is excellent commonsense, re indestructible decking, practical use of space, and less-than optimally-efficient sailplans.

And I daresay whatever I end up sailing this year or in ten years, or on my deathbed, all the distilled joy of ownership will only ever be an unnamable blend of seeing sunlight on various shades of timber, sensing the roll and forward thrust in gusts, and that odd cocktail of scents - paint, wood, unleaded, beer, bleach and the greenish whiff of low tide in harbour.

The trouble I have with sensible low-maintenance GRP sloops, is how little they contribute to that wonderful atmosphere.

...meanwhile, the trouble with the boats that come laden with atmosphere, is their time-consuming eccentricity. But I've always lived in old houses, and I still don't much covet properties without a few hundred years' history. Even so, I could stomach a nice reproduction...

...don't say you wouldn't be tempted!

 

[viago]

http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/editor/attach.gif
decent wheelhouse protection and nice sunbathing decks. comes complete with cabin boys and the odd galley-slave. takes the weather well. not to mention, a bit of a head turner.
somali waters shouldnt pose too much of a problem in this. nice income to be had in providing safe passage to merchant ships.

 

[boguing]

It would be to my design.

Length to beam, 5:1 or more.

Plumb stem and counter stern. Lowish freeboard.

Ballast to displacement, 45% or more. Dry weight.

Sail area such that 22.5 degrees of heel happens at 13 Kts apparent. Fairly high aspect ratio sail plan.

Water ballast to further improve lateral stability, but not affecting pitch.

Permanent cockpit cover. Rain in Lymington, sun in Levkas. Can be achieved without ghastly goalposts and tacky addons.

LOA - works from 30' upwards. Any of them would be hugely entertaining.

Built from composites and/or anything else that's durable and light.

Aesthetics? Mainly covered already. (What you'd see from a distance).

Wood content? No more than you'd see in my house. There is nothing better than laying a boat up in a hot place than chucking the soft stuff into the cockpit and washing everything inside with a hose. Including oneself!

 

[njsail]

Here is a cute little sailboat I came across a few years back. I got the chance to sail next to it and I have to say it was a beautiful site. It's a private boat not for charter (or was back then). http://www.timoneer.org

Drinks anyone?

 

[BruceDanforth]

I'd go for a great big Bruce Roberts Spray, in steel, slightly agricultural looking. Ideally welded by me.

 

[Greenheart]

It would be to my design.

Length to beam, 5:1 or more.

Plumb stem and counter stern. Lowish freeboard.

LOA - works from 30' upwards. Any of them would be hugely entertaining.

Aesthetics? Mainly covered already. QUOTE]

Sounds Dragonesque, aside from the stem. Certainly the essence of elegance, though LOA 30' rather limits the accommodation...

If the budget's unlimited, why not treat yourself? I think Baltimore had the right idea. Just my £four millions' worth...

 

[Snowman]

in a dream,i'd like a original bristol pilot cutter-possible to sail with 2 and able to handle any weather.

In the real world it's got to be a 435 ovni,with the ballast replaced by batteries.Perfect boats for sailing around the world with a swing keel to visit all inshore places.The large battery pack is needed to be self-supporting.These are fed by solar and a shaft generator-rotating the prop costs about 1/2 a knot

Either the ovni and if payable a beastevaar 50 -same story but slightly bigger

 

[Flying Penguin]

But in truth, I find it hard to believe that anybody at all would choose so purely sporting a yacht, as their ultimate vessel of choice.

Actually the JP-54 or a Leopard-esque racer would be a very interesting canvas on which to base a lovely fast-cruiser.

For an example, look here at the charter fit for the ICAP Leopard: http://www.leopard3.com/interior_gallery.html

Not the most inspiring work I admit, but with a bit of work you could get a boat that had a very liveable interior and was still a fast, exciting ride when you want it to be.

Whilst tall square riggers are undeniably beautiful, and a trip on one is very much a bucket list item, I would never choose one as an "ultimate" boat. I'd rather be out "doing sailing" than soaking up the atmosphere at two knots whilst living out some Nelsonian or blazers and white trousers fantasy.

 

[Kelpie]

In the real world it's got to be a 435 ovni,with the ballast replaced by batteries.Perfect boats for sailing around the world with a swing keel to visit all inshore places.The large battery pack is needed to be self-supporting.These are fed by solar and a shaft generator-rotating the prop costs about 1/2 a knot

That's basically my ideal as well, but make the electric saildrive lifting for reduced drag/fouling/draft. Make the overall boat a little smaller and give it a proper transom and a tiller.

 

[Greenheart]

Rob, Snowman, if you can make that work..."I'll have what he's having".

Flying Penguin, I like real sailing too; I always thought the old Sweden Yachts sloops combined slick modernity with timber cosiness.

But I'd like to hope my brigantine can cover ground faster than two knots. I'm thinking a brigantine won't need so many cadets to go aloft, to unfurl the staysails and jibs, if I can hide the roller-furling gear in baggywrinkles. Yards and courses remain a problem...

Compromise, as ever: I'd need clever kit enabling self and mates to handle complex rig, while retaining the authenticity I enjoy.

I agree the vessel needs to have a readily-usable, purposeful handiness, to really satisfy any yachtsman. But equally, lots of days and nights are spent at anchor, berth or dock, and a big white GRP bench seat isn't the nicest or most atmospheric place to be.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It would be to my design.


Plumb stem and counter stern. Lowish freeboard. Plumb stems usually make for wet boats... Why have a wet boat and low freeboard?

I like some of your other ideas - but not sure of the reasoning behind the above.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Flying Penguin, I like real sailing too; I always thought the old Sweden Yachts sloops combined slick modernity with timber cosiness.

But I'd like to hope my brigantine can cover ground faster than two knots. I'm thinking a brigantine won't need so many cadets to go aloft, to unfurl the staysails and jibs, if I can hide the roller-furling gear in baggywrinkles. Yards and courses remain a problem...

Compromise, as ever: I'd need clever kit enabling self and mates to handle complex rig, while retaining the authenticity I enjoy.

I agree the vessel needs to have a readily-usable, purposeful handiness, to really satisfy any yachtsman. But equally, lots of days and nights are spent at anchor, berth or dock, and a big white GRP bench seat isn't the nicest or most atmospheric place to be.

Well if it's a big GRP bench, add some cushions or a teak inlay

Whilst I'm sure a brigantine will cover ground adequately (two knots may have been a slight exaggeration ), personally I'd rather the compromises made went towards taming an exciting boat to the abilities and tolerances of the crew, rather than taking an unnecessarily old-fashioned boat and extremely complicated sail plan and taming it to the desired number of hands.

Whilst I don't doubt you "like sailing", you clearly hold "authenticity" to some old fashioned ideal to be worth sacrificing performance and convenience for. That's absolutely fine, but wood isn't a precondition for a boat to be nice to live aboard.

Whilst you may be perfectly happy in your enormous (and undoubtedly pretty) brigantine, me I'd rather have one of these:

Authentic? No. Atmospheric? Yes, but a different atmosphere. Beautiful? To my eyes, yes. Exciting to sail? Yes. Nice to live aboard? Definitely.

 

[Greenheart]

Agreed, the Shipman is a fine-looking yacht, and quick and slick, I'm sure. But, more in the style of a 'Huf haus' design, where I prefer thatch. Not that I like dark interiors and insects/mice coming in the windows, but my mind just prefers...

...rather than...

And quite true, I actually like bulwarks and belaying-pins and reef-points, bowsprits and rather exaggerated sheerlines.

Let's be honest, nobody goes sailing in 2012 because they're actually in a hurry. Unless one's competitive spirit governs one's taste, the boat's performance doesn't matter more to any owner than does the mood which her ambience puts him in.

So, the fact that a brigantine's big, complicated, not-very-efficient rig gives her terrific atmosphere, is great, both at or en route to your destination; whereas the Shipman's appeal must be great when her simplicity and pure power is in use...and in short supply, when not!

Sorry, that's a foul criticism of a lovely boat. I'll still go for thatch, though!

 

[Kelpie]

Unless one's competitive spirit governs one's taste, the boat's performance doesn't matter more to any owner than does the mood which her ambience puts him in.

I beg to differ. If we passage planned at 3kts instead of 4.5 it would reduce our weekend cruising radius considerably.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Now that's truly ugly.... And very unfair to compare the Shipman to that monstrosity

And quite true, I actually like bulwarks and belaying-pins and reef-points, bowsprits and rather exaggerated sheerlines.

Let's be honest, nobody goes sailing in 2012 because they're actually in a hurry. Unless one's competitive spirit governs one's taste, the boat's performance doesn't matter more to any owner than does the mood which her ambience puts him in.

So, the fact that a brigantine's big, complicated, not-very-efficient rig gives her terrific atmosphere, is great, both at or en route to your destination; whereas the Shipman's appeal must be great when her simplicity and pure power is in use...and in short supply, when not!

Sorry, that's a foul criticism of a lovely boat. I'll still go for thatch, though!

I can't remember who said it, but "the most efficient way of getting to windward is in a 747" was bang on. There is nothing modern about using big sheets of flappy cloth (or carbon fibre) to get around, but that doesn't mean the only way to enjoy it is in a maze of hemp rope and wooden blocks. I love the high speed, just about in control, white water flying everywhere style of sailing, and my ultimate boat would have to be able to scratch that itch on command (and preferably without killing me or crew!). You can always sail a fast boat slowly, but you can't speed up a boat that is designed to plod.

As for comfort, slow down, fold up the tables, get out the wine and enjoy:

So when we pass you in your white trousers, blazer and peaked cap at the wheel of your brigantine, we'll point and look, maybe even take a photo, but then back to (relative) warp speed and away we go, and we'll both be happy

I'm just not a thatch person