You might not want to buy a Leopard catamaran

[capnsensible]

I delivered a Leopard from Croatia to St Lucia, i wrote about it on here several years ago. Long story short, the hardtop Bimini wanted to go walkabout before we’d even reached Gibraltar, the bolts holding it to the uprights were inside the uprights and effectively inaccessible, had the Bimini gone walkabout so too would the main sheet tackle so I ended up rigging a spanish windlass across from port to starboard to hold it down. The patio style sliding doors kept jumping off their tracks. It was shabbily put together - I certainly wouldn’t buy one for myself even if I could afford to. Sailing performance was crap too.

However the trip itself was one of my most enjoyable, great crew - we had a ball.

I reckon that sometimes when you deliver a wonky boat, it can end up with the crew having a great time......teamwork and the we shall overcome spirit!

 

[geem]

On leaky hatches, she explained clearly the main cause was failing to follow the manufacturer's instructions on installation, not the hatches themselves. Not leveling the mounting flange in the moulding and not installing the fastenings correctly. Both a mixture of poor moulding design, manufacture and quality control. At one point she noted that even the warranty repair crew did not follow the instructions.

These hatches are used in their thousands by production builders who I think have fewer issues because their production methods ensure more consistency. The small volume builders rely more on individual fitters than on factory type process control.

I don't think good quality is only found in modern boat building. We have replaced most of our hatches as they were old and worn out. The deck tolerance was perfect. It was easy enough to install new. Remember that Leopard are a modern boat manufacturing company. They can't get their tolerances right.
I wonder how much of it comes down to difficulty of getting skilled labour. If you watch the likes of Tally Ho on utube, you see that skilled work on a one off can be wonderful, but at a huge cost. Most people would never spend the money to have this quality so we get modern construction practises to keep cost down, but we know its hard to have cheap and good.

 

[jlavery]

Leopards are a side line for the builder - they build for Sunsail and I have to assume meet Sunsail's demands. They do, or distributors do - sell them to private buyers. No-one forces anyone to buy a Sunsail yacht (and if its a cat might be branded a Sunsail XYZ). No one forces anyone to buy a Lagoon.

Both yachts meet the demands of the charter market, in the same way a HYUNDAI or Opel meets a different demand to a Land Rover Defender. You would not drive a Kia over the Sahara ......

Yachts, and catamarans especially are not cheap - do your home work - it does not cost much to charter one nor go visit the factory.

Horses for courses.

The faults of yachts are all documented, by now - buyer beware.

Jonathan

Horses for courses shouldn't include a boat that leaks to this extent. The charter market doesn't want leaky, shoddily built boats either.

 

[KevinV]

Horses for courses shouldn't include a boat that leaks to this extent. The charter market doesn't want leaky, shoddily built boats either.

But they do want cheap - so the builder isn't going to put a £40/hour craftsman on fitting hatches, they put the £10/hour labourer on it. That would be fine if the latter is trained and supervised by the former, but that again costs time and therefore money.

I've been involved in the past with a rather beautiful, very expensive yacht, brand new, that had a snagging list as long as your arm - the reason? - they needed it out of the shed, so rushed it out. It was more cost-effective to send a skilled two man team out for a week of snagging than to have the whole shed team sitting on their hands.

Boat building just hasn't caught up with modern quality control - except for the big builders

 

[Bouba]

The big builders get it wrong as well.....in fact so do car manufacturers. I was wondering if the Leopard molds were old and wonky

 

[LittleSister]

Perhaps they've been distracted while so busy building tanks?




I'll get my (trench) coat.

 

[KevinV]

Perhaps they've been distracted while so busy building tanks?




I'll get my (trench) coat.

If the young lady was bouncing around filming them work you could forgive them for being distracted

 

[harvey38]

It’s a marketing directors worst scenario...a well endowed girl publicly complains about your product

Why? I've not listened to a thing she said

 

[Tranona]

I don't think good quality is only found in modern boat building. We have replaced most of our hatches as they were old and worn out. The deck tolerance was perfect. It was easy enough to install new. Remember that Leopard are a modern boat manufacturing company. They can't get their tolerances right.
I wonder how much of it comes down to difficulty of getting skilled labour. If you watch the likes of Tally Ho on utube, you see that skilled work on a one off can be wonderful, but at a huge cost. Most people would never spend the money to have this quality so we get modern construction practises to keep cost down, but we know its hard to have cheap and good.

Did not say it was. Just reflecting on my observations of the boat building industry over the last nearly 50 years. Been in many semi custom or small volume builders over the years and been appalled by some of the poor quality workmanship - and seen it reflected in the lengthy snagging lists of the end products (plus the odd case that eventually gets to the courts). Things like the example here of badly fitted hatches come about because the mouldings are not fair in the first place so require local fettling then lack of control over the process of fitting. The leak was there from the minute the hull or deck came out of the mould. (BTW my father was a fettler in the foundry at Fords in Dagenham and spent a big part of his life making a bad job good enough for use. He retired in 1976 when the new foundry opened that produced essentially flawless castings and his job became redundant.)

Contrast that with the latest (last 20 years or so) developments by the big 4 builders in Europe in production processes. The mounting flange for the hatch would be precisely moulded in accordance with Lewmar requirements and the fastening sequence to ensure no leaks followed to the letter in the process sheet for the operation. These builders can't afford long snagging lists and warranty work so like car manufacturers they aim to get it right first time. Proof of the pudding with my 2015 Bavaria 33. No snagging (I followed the whole process from arriving from the factory to sea trials.) Everything worked and fitted perfectly. In 6 years literally nothing went wrong with the Bavaria bits except corroded wires in the nav light connections due to a leak in the thru deck. The only failures were Lewmar windlass and aspects of the Garmin nav system. My previous 2001 Bavaria was also good, but nowhere near as well put together in terms of detailed fit and finish but still survived 7 years of chartering without any significant failures.

Many "traditional" yards tend to treat each boat as a one off and are heavily reliant on a fitting out process that is based on collecting the bits from the stores and fitting as a one off - drilling holes and making good surrounding areas as required. Inefficient and difficult to control - but does give you the opportunity for a higher level of customisation.

You can have cheap and good IF you invest the capital in the processes that minimise the amount of discretion required at the final assembly stage. This is what car manufacturers do, but the volumes of boats are small such that there is only enough for a very small number of big builders and therefore limited choice. The rest of the market is open to small volume builders filling the gaps.

 

[LittleSister]

. . . The rest of the market is open to small volume builders filling the gaps.

Or sometimes not!

 

[Tranona]

Indeed! in more senses than one

 

[geem]

Did not say it was. Just reflecting on my observations of the boat building industry over the last nearly 50 years. Been in many semi custom or small volume builders over the years and been appalled by some of the poor quality workmanship - and seen it reflected in the lengthy snagging lists of the end products (plus the odd case that eventually gets to the courts). Things like the example here of badly fitted hatches come about because the mouldings are not fair in the first place so require local fettling then lack of control over the process of fitting. The leak was there from the minute the hull or deck came out of the mould. (BTW my father was a fettler in the foundry at Fords in Dagenham and spent a big part of his life making a bad job good enough for use. He retired in 1976 when the new foundry opened that produced essentially flawless castings and his job became redundant.)

Contrast that with the latest (last 20 years or so) developments by the big 4 builders in Europe in production processes. The mounting flange for the hatch would be precisely moulded in accordance with Lewmar requirements and the fastening sequence to ensure no leaks followed to the letter in the process sheet for the operation. These builders can't afford long snagging lists and warranty work so like car manufacturers they aim to get it right first time. Proof of the pudding with my 2015 Bavaria 33. No snagging (I followed the whole process from arriving from the factory to sea trials.) Everything worked and fitted perfectly. In 6 years literally nothing went wrong with the Bavaria bits except corroded wires in the nav light connections due to a leak in the thru deck. The only failures were Lewmar windlass and aspects of the Garmin nav system. My previous 2001 Bavaria was also good, but nowhere near as well put together in terms of detailed fit and finish but still survived 7 years of chartering without any significant failures.

Many "traditional" yards tend to treat each boat as a one off and are heavily reliant on a fitting out process that is based on collecting the bits from the stores and fitting as a one off - drilling holes and making good surrounding areas as required. Inefficient and difficult to control - but does give you the opportunity for a higher level of customisation.

You can have cheap and good IF you invest the capital in the processes that minimise the amount of discretion required at the final assembly stage. This is what car manufacturers do, but the volumes of boats are small such that there is only enough for a very small number of big builders and therefore limited choice. The rest of the market is open to small volume builders filling the gaps.

With all,due respect, a Bavria 33 is a very simple boat. When you get to large cats or monohulls, the list of kit in them is endless. My experience speaking with proffessional skippers, owners and builders is that the more complex the boat, the greater the risk of problems. Boats these days have fridges, freezers, cockpit fridges, electric winches, bow thrusters, stern thrusters, electric blinds, multiple heads with showers, multiple freshwater tanks, grey water tanks, black water tanks. Networked electronics, lithium batteries, electric cooking. All this plumbing, electrics and electronics has to coexist with a salt water environment. Leaking hatches pouring water on to electronics and electrics seems to be a common failure. Our friends 2 year old boat had a hatch leaks that soaked their main electrical distribution panel. Never ending electrical problems until they got the whole board replaced.

We now see the fashion trend that started a few years back of bonded in windows becoming a problem. They look great when new but 10 to15 years down the line, UV deterioration of the adhesive results in windows leaks. The curved windows are even more fun. Popping out leaving a large gap. The lagoon front wundows are famous for it. Good modern design or throw away boat mentality, take your pick.

 

[Tranona]

With all,due respect, a Bavria 33 is a very simple boat. When you get to large cats or monohulls, the list of kit in them is endless. My experience speaking with proffessional skippers, owners and builders is that the more complex the boat, the greater the risk of problems. Boats these days have fridges, freezers, cockpit fridges, electric winches, bow thrusters, stern thrusters, electric blinds, multiple heads with showers, multiple freshwater tanks, grey water tanks, black water tanks. Networked electronics, lithium batteries, electric cooking. All this plumbing, electrics and electronics has to coexist with a salt water environment. Leaking hatches pouring water on to electronics and electrics seems to be a common failure. Our friends 2 year old boat had a hatch leaks that soaked their main electrical distribution panel. Never ending electrical problems until they got the whole board replaced.

We now see the fashion trend that started a few years back of bonded in windows becoming a problem. They look great when new but 10 to15 years down the line, UV deterioration of the adhesive results in windows leaks. The curved windows are even more fun. Popping out leaving a large gap. The lagoon front wundows are famous for it. Good modern design or throw away boat mentality, take your pick.

Moving goalposts!

I was not talking about systems, but about basic structural stuff. Bavaria had exactly the same problem with systems (as you well know) when they moved into the 50-70' market with an options list that cost nearly as much as the basic boat. Their problems were for exactly the same reasons as other builders have problems. Every boat becomes a one off and the build goes back to the old way. Clearly some problems can be avoided by design - Bavaria use a lot of common parts like hatches across the range so the mouldings would be designed so that the cutouts and flanges are perfect just as they are on the volume boats. When it comes to systems, particularly electrics, the smaller boats all have the wiring looms made to cover every option on that model. Clearly not possible for a 65' with a huge range of electrical options so each one becomes an individual build, and by the time you have sorted all the bugs a new model or variation comes along and so on.

Buyers get used to all this sort of stuff working in their BMWs or at home and expect the same in a boat. However they don't appreciate that most of the gear is cottage industry stuff and they are the testing ground for developing it. Your long list of gear comes from different manufacturers working to different standards and the poor old builder has the problem of trying to fit it all into a limited space in such a way that it will all work in what becomes an inhospitable environment.

Not all glued in windows are the same - you pick some bad examples and ignore the good ones that do work and stay stuck. Glued in windows have been used in automotive applications for 40 years - but again they have developed the methods to make sure they work over long periods of time. Sealing openings in boats is always a challenge.

 

[geem]

Moving goalposts!

I was not talking about systems, but about basic structural stuff. Bavaria had exactly the same problem with systems (as you well know) when they moved into the 50-70' market with an options list that cost nearly as much as the basic boat. Their problems were for exactly the same reasons as other builders have problems. Every boat becomes a one off and the build goes back to the old way. Clearly some problems can be avoided by design - Bavaria use a lot of common parts like hatches across the range so the mouldings would be designed so that the cutouts and flanges are perfect just as they are on the volume boats. When it comes to systems, particularly electrics, the smaller boats all have the wiring looms made to cover every option on that model. Clearly not possible for a 65' with a huge range of electrical options so each one becomes an individual build, and by the time you have sorted all the bugs a new model or variation comes along and so on.

Buyers get used to all this sort of stuff working in their BMWs or at home and expect the same in a boat. However they don't appreciate that most of the gear is cottage industry stuff and they are the testing ground for developing it. Your long list of gear comes from different manufacturers working to different standards and the poor old builder has the problem of trying to fit it all into a limited space in such a way that it will all work in what becomes an inhospitable environment.

Not all glued in windows are the same - you pick some bad examples and ignore the good ones that do work and stay stuck. Glued in windows have been used in automotive applications for 40 years - but again they have developed the methods to make sure they work over long periods of time. Sealing openings in boats is always a challenge.

I think we are saying the same thing. Just different words.
My example of windows failing are Jeanneau and Lagoon. Not the smallest boat buiders in the world

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Leaks are a bugger to track down and fix too. We have had some water ingress. Turns out it was where the previous owner had screwed a solar panel to the foredeck. The water was being distributed by the headlining, The wet areas were nowhere near the offending screws. At least with a hatch it’s right there in front of ypu.

 

[geem]

Leaks are a bugger to track down and fix too. We have had some water ingress. Turns out it was where the previous owner had screwed a solar panel to the foredeck. The water was being distributed by the headlining, The wet areas were nowhere near the offending screws. At least with a hatch it’s right there in front of ypu.

Wouldn't the deck be cored?

 

[robmcg]

Anyone seen the latest Sail Life episode over on YouTube? He was having a look at one of the keels on a Fountaine Pajot cat. It was full of water. They dropped it and cut it open. All sorts of crap thrown in there - MDF formers, a roll of closed cell foam (complete with tape to keep it rolled up) and about a third of the keel not having any foam in it at all, just a void. To add insult to injury, the bungs in the top of the keel they had forgotten to glass in - so covered them with a single thin layer of gel coat. Most of the adhesive that the keel was bonded to the hull with had also bonded to........nothing! Looked like it had been applied by the apprentice. Not good when you are paying north of $750k.

 

[luke collins]

Was there a boat in the video? Must have missed it.

 

[Neeves]

Anyone seen the latest Sail Life episode over on YouTube? He was having a look at one of the keels on a Fountaine Pajot cat. It was full of water. They dropped it and cut it open. All sorts of crap thrown in there - MDF formers, a roll of closed cell foam (complete with tape to keep it rolled up) and about a third of the keel not having any foam in it at all, just a void. To add insult to injury, the bungs in the top of the keel they had forgotten to glass in - so covered them with a single thin layer of gel coat. Most of the adhesive that the keel was bonded to the hull with had also bonded to........nothing! Looked like it had been applied by the apprentice. Not good when you are paying north of $750k.

I'm not excusing the work but the keels are meant to be independent of the hulls as the keels are sacrificial - hit something hard, the keel peels off and the hulls might retain integrity. The attachment of the keel to the hull does not want to be tenacious.

The keels are also compartmentalised so that one can hole one section, presumably usually the forward chamber and the other chambers should remain watertight.

Our keels had no 'connection' through to the hulls - the keels were completely sealed.

I did hole the forward section of one of our keels - so know what they look like inside. Sadly there was no repair kit inside ours........

Jonathan