Yotty Snobbery

[Violetta]

Thanks, Ken

I think Alec or anyone else would have a hard time finding any example of me criticising anyone else's boat, or, indeed, any group of sailors (and by that I mean all of us - stinkies included) - search the archives as he may. I think all that kind of stereotyping is a load of destructive rubbish, which is one reason I oppose Robin's pigeonholing here.

Two fallacies:

1. If I express an opinion, I am just expressing an opinion, but if you express and opinion, you are telling everyone else you MUST be right and they MUST be wrong.

2. To prefer, like or love something is to assert that it is intrinsically "better" than something else. (To feel threatened by other people's preferences does seem to me to show a certain lack of confidence in one's own. Hence my earlier quotation from Eleanor Roosevelt)

For the record - I suspect that a lot of AWBs are intrinsically "better" in many ways than our boat. They are certainly faster, infinitely better to windward, roomier......The average AWB owner wouldn't look twice at our boat. But I still love our boat better

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[Violetta]

Spot on, Sir! In my experience (So long! So varied! So replete with glittering achievement!) and in my opinion (which, because of my long, varied and glittering sailing career MUST be correct!) - in sailing, as in life - it is not snobbery that is the problem, but inverted snobbery. This phenomenon is mainly a product of the mind of the accuser. Of course, once we have made up our minds we can all cite individual examples to "prove" the point. But perhaps we leave out of account the well known and well proven tendency of the human mind to focus on evidence that supports our pre-existing opinion and prejudice and overlook or ignore evidence that contradicts it.

Now, Alec - put that in your pipe and smoke it ;-)

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[Violetta]

Multihulls and blue ensigns

Multihulls first. Had a great time this weekend watching some very classy small cats racing. Very hi tech and, boy, do those bods know how to sail. Lovely sight! But tell me - do they EVER free the mainsheet? Apparently broad reaching and going like the clappers in around a 3 - mainsheet tight amidships. I presume this is because the apparent wind draws so far ahead, but it even seemed to be the case when the wind dropped and they slowed down? Is there something else I am missing?

On blue ensigns - I must admit, I find it hard to understand why the colour of a flag causes so much furore. The warrents were granted to some clubs - obviously older ones - I believe, in recognition of the huge contribution their members had made to the naval reserves during two wars. The clubs, and their members, like to commemorate that recognition, I presume. Similarly, past and existing members of the navy and reserves are entitled to wear a blue (I was in company last weekend with a very senior submariner from Faslane who wears an undefaced blue)

Now, I've heard many people express their pride in the red ensign and the achievements of the sailors of the merchant marine - but it wasn't us (red ensign wearers) that sailed in those convoys to Murmansk. So I'm not sure why the wearers of the blue shouldn't acknowledge that same pride in the achievements of past members of their clubs, or, indeed, in their own service. It's an accident of history that we have the three different maritime flags, but it's an interesting history. I don't think it does any harm.

I have noticed, though, that some people do pounce gleefully on any transgression by someone wearing a blue ensign. So it seems we expect higher standards from them, but find it snobbish if we suspect that they would make any claim to represent higher standards themselves. It sure beats me!

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Violetta on 22/09/2003 11:58 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Mirelle]

Blue ensigns

I can remember seeing P&O tankers and OCL containerships flying blue ensigns in the 1970's. If the Master (and, I believe, a certain number of other officers, but I stand to be corrected) are members of the RNR, they may, and usually do, fly a blue, under personal warrant, but British officers on British ships are now very rare.

In fact, according to a study by James McConville, at London Metropolitan University, there are just 14,263 British officers holding current certificates of competence - this figure is based, sensibly enough, on revalidation of Certificates of Competency - and most of those are on non-UK flag ships, whilst at least a couple of thousand are in shore jobs, such as superintendent or harbour master or surveyor, where they need to keep their certificate valid.

The RN are quietly worried enough about this to have commissioned Professor McConville's study.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 22/09/2003 12:08 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Violetta]

PS

My oilies are not blue - it would be hard to tell what colour they are, really. Musto Oceans they are not! Musto Ocean HPX would be a lot "better" but I am happy with my nice, comfy old oilies ;-)

(Especially the trousers. They are around 35 years old, were bought in Cork, and have a tale attached. Sentimental value)

Neither is my ensign blue. Mind you, as a member of the CA, I COULD have a blue one.....but never mind. Somehow, it's not something I can get worked up about - either way.

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[Violetta]

You don\'t agree with me?

Why not just say so? ;-)

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[Observer]

Re: PS

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

(Especially the trousers. They are around 35 years old, were bought in Cork, and have a tale attached. Sentimental value)

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I suppose modesty/decency means we're unlikely to hear that one? [sigh]




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[Violetta]

Here\'s the double act again

I don't know who you are raging at - you seem to be projecting on to Mirelle your rage about some other person, unknown to the rest of us.

If Mirelle's love for his boat upsets you so much, then I can only refer you to the advice of Eleanor Roosevelt.

If you disagree with Mirelle's reasoned (and well-informed) opinions of the characteristics of his boat and others, then I suggest you debate it with him and put your own points. You might have a very interesting discussion. But apoplexy is bad for you.

No, Mirelle and I are not a "double act", but I suspect we share many of the same values in relation to sailing and the sea. He is also one of the contributors to this and other boards whose knowledge, understanding, wisdom and civilized behaviour I respect most of all.

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[Mirelle]

Your suspicions confirmed....

Indeed we are a double act. We spent Sunday afternoon at a secret, offshore, meeting place, equidistant between our moorings (the Gunfleet Sands pile lighthouse, actually - the smell of rot and decay accords with our temperament) concocting our response to your telling thrusts.

Worse, both of us belong to an organisation which issues Blue Ensign warrants, and, such is our low and dastardly nature, neither of us actually flies such a flag, thereby deceiving honest folks into thinking that we are one degree less snobbish than we actually are. This organisation has a club house, and has the temerity to expect its members to subscribe to a Code of Conduct - a notion so fearsomely snobbish that I can hardly bring myself to mention it.

Worse still, there are other members of our gang, who meet every week round the back of the bike shed at IPC Magazines, wearing shiny old reefer jackets with club ties covered in soup stains, smoking Senior Service and sipping pink gin, who lurk on this bulletin board and aim to trap the unwary. Twister Ken has unfortunately blown his cover, but be warned - there are more!

Now, write out 500 times "When dipping my ensign to a passing warship, I must keep it at the dip until the salute is returned", and hand then in by Civil Twilight, please!

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[Violetta]

Shame on you, Mirelle!

Giving away all our secrets to the hoi polloi! Beware, or I shall lecture you unmercifully from the dizzy heights of my distinguished, nay glittering, sailing career (eat your heart out, MacArthur, Chichester, Knox-Johnson, Slocum....) and then, which is worse, I shall have you BLACKBALLED!!


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[Violetta]

Sorry to disappoint...

Nothing very lubricious about it.

Proper old dusting on a trip from Salcombe to (we hoped) the Kenmare River. Ended up in Kinsale after lying hove to for 24 hours in some of the steepest seas I have ever seen while we saw out a gale from the north west. Hung the old trousers out to dry but they were whipped away by the wind. No doubt they ended up around someone's prop. No chandlers in Kinsale in them thar days, so I had to take a day trip by bus into Cork to get another pair - my first visit to that fair city. Had the trousers ever since. It was a good day out and a good trip all told.

I've always loved sailing on the south and west coasts of Ireland and my "Cork Trousers" remind me of some good times. I shall be sad when they finally give up the ghost, but they made 'em tough, if not so stylish, in those days.

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[Twister_Ken]

\'old \'ar me \'andsome

How did I get dragged into this? There I was, enjoying a quiet pint of Guinness at the boat show...

Anyway, my boat came with a perfectly good Red Ensign, years of life left in it.

The boat also appears to belong to the MYC. No idea where that is, but it's been nicely painted on the Arthur Ransome, and it would be a shame to scrape it off.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Sorry to disappoint...

Sounds a bit like my first HenriLloyd jacket. By the time I 'outgrew' it it could hand, reef, steer and book a table all by itself.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Observer]

Sorry to disappoint...

Vi,

You are an incorrigible adjective dropper! You had me scuttling to the dictionary with "lubricious", wondering if it might be a malapropism. No such luck, of course. How could I even have thought it?


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[Jeremy_W]

Re: REAL feeling, REALLY offended, REAL boat rage?

Well you've certainly set the cat among the pigeons with your first handful of postings. You may apply direct to Kim for the Steve101 Memorial Trophy.

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[oldgit]

Re:flags.Get one here.but not like mine

Not wanting to join any club which would be desperate enough to have me as a member and wishing to point out that the club tie would need to be shared around for those wishing to keep their trousers up.Feel sure that those with a 'chip on the shoulder ' are doing no more than gently having a little fun at the expence of people who like tradition.

<hr width=100% size=1>Two boats please one here n one in the Med

 

[penfold]

Re: Blue ensigns

Is it not the case that any peeps can get a warrant for an undefaced bluey if they are or have been in the armed services or a servile(sic) servant? or am I talking out of my botty?

cheers,
david

<hr width=100% size=1>What in the wide, wide world of sports is goin' on here?

 

[peterb]

Re: Blue ensigns

Yes, it is not the case, and you are.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by peterb on 22/09/2003 23:53 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Jeremy_W]

Re: Blue ensigns

>>> Is it not the case that any peeps can get a warrant for an undefaced bluey if they are or have been in the armed services or a servile(sic) servant? or am I talking out of my botty?

Ex-RN who stay members of the RNSA certainly. Other services - I'm unsure. Civil servants - I think not.



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[peterb]

Re: Blue ensigns

I believe that the RNSA and people on the Royal Naval Reserve were allowed blue ensigns. RAFSA can fly the pale blue ensign with a roundel. Not sure about the army. Civil servants (including members of the Civil Service Sailing Association) definitely not.

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