YM has 'right of way'

[Babylon]

YM has \'right of way\'

YM Feb 09, Page 38: Quick Quiz, Question 2: "You are sailing in open water, on a collision course with a seaplane. Who has right of way?"

My answer: No vessel ever has 'right of way' - in this scenario the boat is the stand-on vessel, the seaplane (assuming it is on the water and underway) is the give-way vessel.

YM's answer: "You do, assuming the seaplane is underway. The COLREGS state that a seaplane on the water is treated like a powerboat. Once airborne it must keep clear of all vessels."

Discuss.

 

[Kilter]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Of course I'd stand on if a seaplane was roaring towards me on a take off run; he'd be able to turn away sharply!

 

[flaming]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

After today's spate of "kick YM" threads I might have to buy a copy to see if I can join in the fun!

 

[Cerddinen]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Don't the ColRegs also state that, whatever any other rule might says, both parties have an obligation to take action to avoid collision? If the yacht were to stand-on and a collision resulted then the yacht captain would bear some part, if not all, of the responsibility.

 

[nathanlee]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

There is problem with this.

Ignoring icebergs and canting keels, a boat always floats. That's what it was designed for and it does it well. It is built to be controllable in the water specifically.

A sea plane sort of floats, but only just, and is certainly not meant to travel across water for any distance. The seaplane's true habitat is the air, and the point where you're most likely to encounter one is while it is making efforts to get there. At this point the plane has even LESS control in the water and not enough speed to make much difference to direction in the air.

I would argue that you should always make efforts to keep clear of a seaplane no matter what the circumstances, not least because it has a lethal weapon doing a couple of thousand RPM on the front of it, and wings full of stuff that makes smoking while changing your gas bottle seem safe.

 

[oughtoc]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Hmm let me see, engines out of the water, big spinning propellers that can kill at the same height as the crew, high speed traffic that if interrupted will be catastrophic. Of course we should stand on. Rules over common sense everytime. Who writes this crap?

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Nathan, what you say is true but nevertheless the legal position is unambiguous, until the seaplane is in the air it's obliged to act according to the colregs. No ambiguity about that. You are right to point out that the commonsense precautionary approach does not always coincide with following the rules although it could be argued that by taking action 'early' you may just be meeting your obligation not to stand on regardless.

 

[Kilter]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

[ QUOTE ]
Sacred to the memory of Michael O’Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
But he’s just as dead as if he’d been wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Paul_G]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Would it not be argued that the seaplane is limited in its abiity to manoeuvre (sp) therefore the sailing boat should give way?(as well as being the sensible solution)

P

 

[flaming]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

What's the take off speed of a seaplane? 100 knots? I have no idea. But anyway it's going to be a long way north of the speed your average cruiser can make in full "I'm about to be run down" mode.
Getting out of the way of one might actually be almost impossible if it decides to start a run pointing at you.

 

[flyingscampi]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

I'd give way to a car on a zebra crossing so I'd give way to the seaplane.

 

[bbg]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

A seaplane will need to maneouvre to / from its runway, and use the runway. It is pretty obvious which phase it is in. Even if the rules say you are "stand on", once that plane gets on the runway the prudent thing to do is stay out of the way. Actually it is pretty prudent to stay out of the way regardless. And, frankly, you would want to stay well away from them just for the noise they make, even when idling / taxiing.

I learned to row next to a seaplane runway. It wasn't unusual to have two or three planes land / take off during a practice. Regardless of the rules, we always stayed well away.

 

[jimi]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

[ QUOTE ]
What's the take off speed of a seaplane? 100 knots? I have no idea. But anyway it's going to be a long way north of the speed your average cruiser can make in full "I'm about to be run down" mode.
Getting out of the way of one might actually be almost impossible if it decides to start a run pointing at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, precisely what action do the avpoiders intend to take to avoid something that may or not hit you at over 100mph in a couple of seconds .. mine might well be to dive overboard!!!!

 

[bbg]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

I'd guess take off speed is probably closer to 50 knots. And I suspect they are trained to have a runway "cone" clear before taking off / landing, such that vessels moving at normal speed won't be likely to interfere once the take off / final approach begins.

 

[flaming]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

[ QUOTE ]
I'd guess take off speed is probably closer to 50 knots. And I suspect they are trained to have a runway "cone" clear before taking off / landing, such that vessels moving at normal speed won't be likely to interfere once the take off / final approach begins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd certainly hope so!

 

[Sans Bateau]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Mmm, I can confirm that it does focus one! The only time I've shared a bit of water with a seaplane was a couple of years ago in the South of France, approaching Cavalaire-sur-Mer, as it circled, losing height and lining up for a landing you do start to think "am I well out of the way", and "is he actually supposed to be landing?". There was no question in my mind as to who was stand on, just the thought that I MUST stay out of his way.

In the end he landed a couple of miles from any boats in a designated area.

 

[Kilter]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

[ QUOTE ]
precisely what action do the avpoiders intend to take

[/ QUOTE ]

Is "avpoider" a specialist term for those avoiding aviators? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The action I'd take is not be in the path of the bogger in the first place..."I wouldn't start from here if I was you" point of view!

 

[webcraft]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

[ QUOTE ]
I'd guess take off speed is probably closer to 50 knots.

[/ QUOTE ] The Cessna Caravan 208 on floats has a minimum take-of speed of about 60 knots, but may be travelling faster at take-off. Typical climbout speed is 90 knots. Other types may have higher takeoff speeds.

The main point is that once well into the takeoff run the pilot has virtually no directional control. If the machine is still to be treated as a water craft then I would go along with the view that it is manoevering with difficulty at this point.

I'm with Jimi- my avoiding action would probably involve diving over the side.

- W

 

[bbg]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

I just googled around a bit. From what I have found, take off speed for a Beaver is probably around 65-70 mph, and can be effected in as little as 200 yds. Stopping can be in as little as 100 yds.

I think the question is YM is poor, because it doesn't distunguish between whether the plane is taxiing - in which case it is quite reasonable to expect it to follow colregs - or taking off / landing - in which case the pilot should make sure it isn't anywhere near you.

On a related point - the pilot might feel quite comfortable touching down 50 yards away from you because he knows that you can't interfere with him. But it might seem too close for comfort from your point of view, if you're not used to it.

 

[snowleopard]

Re: YM has \'right of way\'

Going back to the OP, the question at issue was - should YM be castigated for using the term 'right of way'?

Most of us know what is meant by 'right of way' and 'stand on' just as most of us know that a 'union jack' should be referred to as 'union flag' but still casually use the wrong terms.

Who cares?