YM Coastal - Radar Knowledge Requirement

[GHA]

I did not. I had both on my boat, my preference if i had a choice was to take AIS over Radar.

Which is an either/or choice.......

As the technologies and data they provide are different it's really not that useful to do a one or the other choice, more helpful to look at them separately
Shall I get radar?
Shall I get a powered windlass?
shall I get AIS?
etc etc

More useful than "shall I get radar OR AIS" , they're different beasts. Less confusing to view them separately.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Haven't looked at the RYA available courses for a long time, so please excuse my ignorance of not knowing about it.
I'm sorry but I still think of it as an acronym not a word but that's me being old and pedantic.

It never was an acronym; at best its a backronym! Radar was a coined word originally; since then people have developed various "explanations" of the word, but it was coined simply to disguise what it was. The British RDF which originally meant radar was an acronym, but it lost out to radar because it was a bit too obvious what it was about, and these days referes to a different technology.

 

[dulls]

Which is an either/or choice.......

As the technologies and data they provide are different it's really not that useful to do a one or the other choice, more helpful to look at them separately
Shall I get radar?
Shall I get a powered windlass?
shall I get AIS?
etc etc

More useful than "shall I get radar OR AIS" , they're different beasts. Less confusing to view them separately.

If you have a budget you make choices and if someone was thinking about getting radar or Ais i would advise them towards Ais. and i would choose Ais over Radar. We make choices all the time. Some prefer Radar. The post stands on its own.

 

[[163233]]

The actual need for radar is sort of irrelevant, the YM has to be widely accepted commercially in the UK and abroad so it needs to have whatever is necessary to achieve that.

 

[GHA]

If you have a budget you make choices and if someone was thinking about getting radar or Ais i would advise them towards Ais. and i would choose Ais over Radar. We make choices all the time. Some prefer Radar. The post stands on its own.

If you wanted to be helpful you'd point out that asking either radar or ais isn't a very useful question to ask, better to treat the 2 technologies on their own merits/benefits instead of lumping together apples and oranges. .

But no one is ever less than exactly correct on the internet

 

[dulls]

The actual need for radar is sort of irrelevant, the YM has to be widely accepted commercially in the UK and abroad so it needs to have whatever is necessary to achieve that.

Yes spot on. For those who want to use their YM for those purposes it is a common sense approach by the RYA. I think the key elements of learning radar is the set up, use of EBL, VRM rain clutter, sea clutter and tuning safely and safe interpretation of the screen. Also a run down on its limitations.

 

[dulls]

If you wanted to be helpful you'd point out that asking either radar or ais isn't a very useful question to ask, better to treat the 2 technologies on their own merits/benefits instead of lumping together apples and oranges. .

But no one is ever less than exactly correct on the internet

Pointless post. I have said what i have said. It makes sense to me. I ask what questions i want. It is the point of the forum.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

It never was an acronym; at best its a backronym! Radar was a coined word originally; since then people have developed various "explanations" of the word, but it was coined simply to disguise what it was. The British RDF which originally meant radar was an acronym, but it lost out to radar because it was a bit too obvious what it was about, and these days referes to a different technology.

The term RADAR, later Radar, was coined in 1940 by the US military to denote "Radio Detection And Ranging". In the 1950s the RAF used the phrase "Radio Azimuth Direction and Ranging".
RDF was Radio Direction Finding, whereby a loop antenna was turned until it established the bearing of a suitable radio station, thereby giving a position line. Its postwar commercial development became the Decca Navigation system, which only became obsolete when GPS became commercially viable towards the end of the last century. It was not a type of radar.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

In 20 years of sailing I have only ever been on one boat equipped with radar. It was useful in detecting squalls when crossing Biscay, but AIS was the primary tool for detecting approaching ships, which, using their own AIS receivers would alter course more than 10 miles distant by a small amount, to overtake.
The Radar was essential when entering Baiona harbour in a peasoup fog, on a Sunday morning, in the face of a multitude of emerging angling vessels and fast moving RIBS.

 

[dulls]

In 20 years of sailing I have only ever been on one boat equipped with radar. It was useful in detecting squalls when crossing Biscay, but AIS was the primary tool for detecting approaching ships, which, using their own AIS receivers would alter course more than 10 miles distant by a small amount, to overtake.
The Radar was essential when entering Baiona harbour in a peasoup fog, on a Sunday morning, in the face of a multitude of emerging angling vessels and fast moving RIBS.

Many yachts have it now. Not many on the below 33 feet range but above that the gadgets increase. I used my Ais all the time and agree that using a radar for serious use is fairly rare. My last boat i had for 10 years and i think it was used for about 2 hours all up(Australia with fog more rare than the UK). I know i will be corrected by those who perpetually sail in low visibility. Now power boats have it on a lot more, it goes with the engine charging capabilities but in all my time on someone elses power boat i never saw them use it. They had the plotter and ais going with that overlaid onto the plotter. Radar is great when you really need it but is it often enough to justify the cost and power usage?(I know radar power use is decreasing all the time)

 

[srm]

On a yacht i dont know anyone who sits looking at the radar all the time.

We have. To give just three examples from different years: all the way up the west coast of Scotland from north of Isla to just south of Cape Wrath; across the Pentland Firth and down past Wick; from leaving Loch Erribol around Cape Wrath and well into the Minch. All in thick fog that was only apparent some hours after departure. We also had GPS chart plotter running on these passages and the then new AIS on the Pentland Firth crossing, which simplified target identification.

Radar is also nice and reasuring at night, especially in unfamiliar waters. I use it to confirm AIS targets and spot those without AIS, as well as confirm that buoys are where they should be. I would also have liked to have had radar after leaving the River Lune and trying to find the Isle of Man, again in thick fog, but that was long before GPS and chart plotters had been invented.

Pedantic calling your toys 'aids to navigation'? Perhaps, but then I spent 20+ years teaching electronic nav to Merchant Navy deck officers and know why it is better not to rely on one system. I have seen GPS go walkabouts, anything from 1 to 20 miles adrift. These jumps are usually obvious but the 100 plus metres when entering a narrow channel may not be, unless you are cross checking it. I have had my plotter showing me running on the rocky beach while eyeball and echosounder put me in the middle of the channel.

Fortunately, we are all free to sail and navigate how we think fit. You like the yachtie way, I prefer the professional way.

The bottom line for all of us is - stay safe.

 

[Babylon]

Interesting point made above. My order of kit was GPS (already on boat 13yrs ago), then standalone radar 11yrs ago, then 8yrs ago a DSC/AIS enabled VHF, to which I added a chartplotter by the same manufacturer (Standard Horizon) so I could see AIS targets on a proper plotter screen.

At the time I fitted the radar I was sneered at by someone with a lot more money than me for not buying an integrated chart-plotter radar combo, but my logic was that independent systems offered redundancy - plus I could only afford one item at the time and decided that lat-long from ship's and hand-held GPS plus radar was the best initial combination.

Now the chartplotter has ceased to work when connected up for AIS data (started constantly re-booting itself after three years of working perfectly) and this is not capable of resolution (there's a long thread I started about this a year or so ago if anyone is interested in the arcane details as to why), so it has reverted to being just a plotter with the AIS feed removed.

I'm tired of spending money on the problem. I have a robust working radar, a chart-plotter with an old chart card in it, paper charts of my cruising ground (the Channel, CI's and North Brittany) and a VHF radio that explodes with alarms on a daily basis when in or close to the Solent.

AIS has ceased to be part of how I sail.

 

[dulls]

We have. To give just three examples from different years: all the way up the west coast of Scotland from north of Isla to just south of Cape Wrath; across the Pentland Firth and down past Wick; from leaving Loch Erribol around Cape Wrath and well into the Minch. All in thick fog that was only apparent some hours after departure. We also had GPS chart plotter running on these passages and the then new AIS on the Pentland Firth crossing, which simplified target identification.

Radar is also nice and reasuring at night, especially in unfamiliar waters. I use it to confirm AIS targets and spot those without AIS, as well as confirm that buoys are where they should be. I would also have liked to have had radar after leaving the River Lune and trying to find the Isle of Man, again in thick fog, but that was long before GPS and chart plotters had been invented.

Pedantic calling your toys 'aids to navigation'? Perhaps, but then I spent 20+ years teaching electronic nav to Merchant Navy deck officers and know why it is better not to rely on one system. I have seen GPS go walkabouts, anything from 1 to 20 miles adrift. These jumps are usually obvious but the 100 plus metres when entering a narrow channel may not be, unless you are cross checking it. I have had my plotter showing me running on the rocky beach while eyeball and echosounder put me in the middle of the channel.

Fortunately, we are all free to sail and navigate how we think fit. You like the yachtie way, I prefer the professional way.

The bottom line for all of us is - stay safe.

"My last boat i had for 10 years and i think it was used for about 2 hours all up(Australia with fog more rare than the UK). I know i will be corrected by those who perpetually sail in low visibility. " Post 50
I quoted from my own post. I predicted your post as i knew it was coming. I know about chart datum and other gps issues but it allowed you to give you your point of view. Many yachts do not even have paper charts anymore. Many people use GPS as their primary form of navigation. I did not advocate that i just stated that is now the fact. I am glad you are so professional. This is a yacht forum so your point about being a yachty seems to be normal on here. I am sure there are big ship forums where you can preen yourself. At no point did i offer an opinion as to what i like.

Gps is now the primary form of navigation regardless of what you think. 20 years ago you were right. 20 years is a long time.

 

[dulls]

Interesting point made above. My order of kit was GPS (already on boat 13yrs ago), then standalone radar 11yrs ago, then 8yrs ago a DSC/AIS enabled VHF, to which I added a chartplotter by the same manufacturer (Standard Horizon) so I could see AIS targets on a proper plotter screen.

At the time I fitted the radar I was sneered at by someone with a lot more money than me for not buying an integrated chart-plotter radar combo, but my logic was that independent systems offered redundancy - plus I could only afford one item at the time and decided that lat-long from ship's and hand-held GPS plus radar was the best initial combination.

Now the chartplotter has ceased to work when connected up for AIS data (started constantly re-booting itself after three years of working perfectly) and this is not capable of resolution (there's a long thread I started about this a year or so ago if anyone is interested in the arcane details as to why), so it has reverted to being just a plotter with the AIS feed removed.

I'm tired of spending money on the problem. I have a robust working radar, a chart-plotter with an old chart card in it, paper charts of my cruising ground (the Channel, CI's and North Brittany) and a VHF radio that explodes with alarms on a daily basis when in or close to the Solent.

AIS has ceased to be part of how I sail.

I like to keep them all separate. So each has its own screen as well as the ability to overlay. AIS is a great bit of kit. Radar came with my second boat. An old power hungry Koden. It worked well. I got my Ais about 4 years later(Vesper marine 850.) I had an old Garmin plotter LCD and when it died i replaced with a small colour plotter. I have always had the charts and carried a spare hand held for the lat and long. My friend always bought his Ipad which we often used in the copit.

 

[srm]

Gps is now the primary form of navigation regardless

And has been for many years. However, it is not infallible.
The example I gave of GPS plotter showing the boat on the beach, and experiences of GPS walk about are all well within the last ten years. Incidentally, the next time I went in that narrow channel the same GPS plotter set up showed me on the centre line, so not a datum issue as you imply.

 

[dulls]

And has been for many years. However, it is not infallible.
The example I gave of GPS plotter showing the boat on the beach, and experiences of GPS walk about are all well within the last ten years. Incidentally, the next time I went in that narrow channel the same GPS plotter set up showed me on the centre line, so not a datum issue as you imply.

That would come under other issues....shall i quote myself?

 

[[3889]]

The RYA administer the exams which are recognised basis for commercial skippering tickets as recognised by the MCA. If you follow the reports on incidents of vessels at sea, you will notice that there are often reported 'radar assisted collisions. The MCA (not unreasonably) now insist that the RYA ensure that anyone taking a YM Offshore or Coastal exam shows that they at least know how to turn the radar on and have a notion of how to set it up and interpret the picture.

The fact that most yachts don't have radar's is irrelevant. A YM Offshore ticket (with a medical and a couple of other bits of paper) can entitle the holder to be the skipper of a commercial vessel up top 24 metres long and 200 tonnes.

Please note that this is my explanation and I am not the official spokesperson for the RYA. If you want the official version, write to them. I only conduct exams (and officially I am an independent examiner for the RYA/MCA).

Pedantically, may I point out that the 24m restriction does not apply to commercially endorsed YM Certs.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Pedantically, may I point out that the 24m restriction does not apply to commercially endorsed YM Certs.

Apologies: It's all according to what medical certificate you have. "Restrictions on a ENG1 certificate will prevent you gaining STCW qualifications for vessels greater than 24m in length."
(I don't have any restrictions and was forgetting that the 24 metre limit doesn't therefore apply.)

 

[srm]

shall i quote myself?

No need to.
We have both made our points and described our experiences. Anyone interested will draw their own conclusions.

 

[Uricanejack]

Hi all,

Some advice needed - I recently signed up for the Coastal ticket and the school in the Solent tried to push a Radar Course on me, saying it was necessary to pass the exam. This was the first I'd heard of the requirement, and having sailed on quite a few boats, and known a couple of people that had done either the Coastal or Offshore ticket, I was surprised to hear this requirement. Needless to say, I declined the offer, and opted to buy the RYA Intro to Radar Book Pamphlet, and watch a couple of YouTube Videos. I also contacted the RYA direct to check that I wasn't being had by the school. Ultimately they responded saying that the requirement was true (though I didn't necessarily need to do a course), and that this was due to the MCA raising with them five years ago, that they had seen less and less radar expertise amongst candidates, and that it was unlikely, if I couldn't switch on, set up, and use a fitted radar system as a navigational aid, that I would be awarded the YM Coastal ticket.

Thankfully, with a combination of the pamphlet and several Youtube videos, I understand how a radar works, the concept of start up (Brilliance, Contrast, Gain, Range and Tuning), and the views (North up, Course Up, Head Up). But, and we get to the crux of this post, I am a bit confused about the plots. All the examples I've seen reference plotting sheets which are A4 pieces of paper. Is this normal? If you were plotting, would you copy the rough position of a contact on an A4 paper template, or is it more normal to have an acetate template, cut to the size of the radar display screen, with the rings and bearings permanently pre-drawn on it, that you would place against the screen and trace [mark] the contact, and repeat?

Cheers,

NCounties

Were you being up sold? maybe. Even so it’s worth while taking a radar course.
I don’t know why the RYA do or do not require anything.
My understanding, coastal YM certificates can be used commercially.
Logic would imply a radar course would be a requirement, logic of course doesn’t always apply to regulation.

Plotting, to be honest, I haven’t used a plotting sheet other than for teaching for years. Do I plot routinely on my boat? Nope I prefer to sit in an anchorage or marina with a cold beer.
Can I yes.

A4 it works.
Down load or copy and Print of some radar plotting sheets on the A4 and it will be a lot easier and quicker.
Chandlers used to sell pads of them.

Or my persona favourite.
Pull out a chart and use the compass rose, even the chart you are using, just use the compass rose at the other end.
In addition to the rose the chart has the advantage of a handy dandy range scale at the side.

Why is it still important to learn? like anything, in order to understand what the fancy kit is doing, you need to understand the basics.

Plus my particular boat and radar is very basic, H up unstablased .
I can probably resolve a radar plot in my head pretty quick.
Trying to explain why I chose to do so after the fact will not go well. I will be at fault for not having plotted properly and ussing scanty information to screw up and get it wrong leading to a radar assisted colision.

or I could do a quick rough plot on the compass rose.