YM Coastal - Radar Knowledge Requirement

[Praxinoscope]

Any reasonably competent pedant would know it's been an accepted word in all the major English dictionaries for decades.

I have never claimed to be a compétant pédant, incompetent pedant would perhaps be a better description.

 

[ncounties]

Thanks all for all the great feedback. I'd also seen those videos from the US school, and watched a couple by Alistair Baillie, but these generally focused around the collision avoidance 6/12 min plots. As a number of posters mentioned, I'll watch some additional videos on radar plotting, and setting up and using the EBL for collision avoidance etc. Thanks also for those that shared what they were asked on their exams, and those that explained how they utilise their personal radars.

 

[TernVI]

Has anyone here done the RYA radar course?

 

[dulls]

Hi all,

Some advice needed - I recently signed up for the Coastal ticket and the school in the Solent tried to push a Radar Course on me, saying it was necessary to pass the exam. This was the first I'd heard of the requirement, and having sailed on quite a few boats, and known a couple of people that had done either the Coastal or Offshore ticket, I was surprised to hear this requirement. Needless to say, I declined the offer, and opted to buy the RYA Intro to Radar Book Pamphlet, and watch a couple of YouTube Videos. I also contacted the RYA direct to check that I wasn't being had by the school. Ultimately they responded saying that the requirement was true (though I didn't necessarily need to do a course), and that this was due to the MCA raising with them five years ago, that they had seen less and less radar expertise amongst candidates, and that it was unlikely, if I couldn't switch on, set up, and use a fitted radar system as a navigational aid, that I would be awarded the YM Coastal ticket.

Thankfully, with a combination of the pamphlet and several Youtube videos, I understand how a radar works, the concept of start up (Brilliance, Contrast, Gain, Range and Tuning), and the views (North up, Course Up, Head Up). But, and we get to the crux of this post, I am a bit confused about the plots. All the examples I've seen reference plotting sheets which are A4 pieces of paper. Is this normal? If you were plotting, would you copy the rough position of a contact on an A4 paper template, or is it more normal to have an acetate template, cut to the size of the radar display screen, with the rings and bearings permanently pre-drawn on it, that you would place against the screen and trace [mark] the contact, and repeat?

Cheers,

NCounties

If you remember BCGRT and at start up turn rain clutter and sea clutter to zero you will know most of what you need to know. When using rain clutter you keep your hand on it and always return it to zero when not looking at it. Tune at a medium range like 4 plus miles. the ship guys will give even better advice. Also use the ebl line for collision avoidance. Set it on the target and if it remains near or on the line there is a risk of collision.

 

[RobF]

Has anyone here done the RYA radar course?

I did many years ago. I've forgotten much of it, but still have the coursebook so could refresh myself. The YouTube videos may be of more benefit - particularly as I'm looking to do my YM Offshore in the next year or so.

 

[dulls]

I did many years ago. I've forgotten much of it, but still have the coursebook so could refresh myself. The YouTube videos may be of more benefit - particularly as I'm looking to do my YM Offshore in the next year or so.

I did my radar as a commercial master 4 cse about 20 years ago. I pretty much used ebl lines and BCGRT to start up and that was about it. The B with modern radars is not needed anymore. I never went near radar as part of the YM cse. It was the early 90s and radars were rare on yachts. Heck VHF had only recently become popular on yachts.

 

[srm]

Going back to the OP's question. When I did the MN radar and electronic nav course in the late 80's we spent days on radar plots - using 6 minute ranges and bearings on paper sheets. Basically, this was to learn the principles of relative motion. In the practical exam, on an old fashioned set, we plotted direct on to the screen using a china graph pencil to obtain CPA. We were also trained on more up to date sets with daylight viewing and trails.

Times moved on and when teaching MN radar course (up to ten years ago) students still had to do (and pass) complex paper plots, but practical exercises were on simulators with electronic vectors or full ARPA facilities.

Realistically, hand plotting is not needed with even basic radars nowadays.

Using my 15 year old basic Raymarine yacht radar (with relative N up display) I put an EBL and range ring over the echo when first aquiring a target. Then, as mentioned above, note if the target tracks down the EBL to estimate risk of collision. Gauging a line from the origin (range ring / EBL cross) through the target will give an indication of CPA from centre of screen. The edge of a short ruler may help, no need to draw.

More modern sets can do this and much more for you.

Just as an aside, modern radars filter out intermittent signals so you need to ensure that your own vessel gives a consistent return at 5 miled range in real sea conditions for other vessels to see you on their radars and ARPA can aquire and track you.

 

[prv]

Has anyone here done the RYA radar course?

Yes. I wasn’t very impressed although that may have been my particular instructor rather than the syllabus.

As for inclusion in the Yachtmaster Coastal, my dad did that a couple of years ago and specifically went off to do the radar course (and the VHF course, which he’d never bothered with for decades, oops) in preparation. I don’t know if that was mandated or merely advised by the school, but he implied to me that it was part of the process.

Pete

 

[st599]

Going back to the OP's question. When I did the MN radar and electronic nav course in the late 80's we spent days on radar plots - using 6 minute ranges and bearings on paper sheets. Basically, this was to learn the principles of relative motion. In the practical exam, on an old fashioned set, we plotted direct on to the screen using a china graph pencil to obtain CPA. We were also trained on more up to date sets with daylight viewing and trails.

The RYA course workbook is mainly hand drawn 6 minute plots using a simulator of a green screen CRT PPI complete with gain and tune knobs.
The simulator can also be switched to look like a very early Raymarine LCD with a terrible menu.
Marpa is mentioned in the book, not sure AIS is, chirp/ broadband definitely isn't.

 

[st599]

Yes. I wasn’t very impressed although that may have been my particular instructor rather than the syllabus.

As for inclusion in the Yachtmaster Coastal, my dad did that a couple of years ago and specifically went off to do the radar course (and the VHF course, which he’d never bothered with for decades, oops) in preparation. I don’t know if that was mandated or merely advised by the school, but he implied to me that it was part of the process.

Pete

You have to hold a VHF certificate and a first aid certificate as a prerequisite to the practical exam.

 

[prv]

You have to hold a VHF certificate and a first aid certificate as a prerequisite to the practical exam.

Yes - the point is that he thought the same applied to radar, though it seems that may not have been correct.

Pete

 

[Babylon]

When I did the MN radar and electronic nav course in the late 80's we spent days on radar plots - using 6 minute ranges and bearings on paper sheets. Basically, this was to learn the principles of relative motion. In the practical exam, on an old fashioned set, we plotted direct on to the screen using a china graph pencil to obtain CPA. We were also trained on more up to date sets with daylight viewing and trails.

Times moved on and when teaching MN radar course (up to ten years ago) students still had to do (and pass) complex paper plots, but practical exercises were on simulators with electronic vectors or full ARPA facilities.

Realistically, hand plotting is not needed with even basic radars nowadays.

Using my 15 year old basic Raymarine yacht radar (with relative N up display) I put an EBL and range ring over the echo when first aquiring a target. Then, as mentioned above, note if the target tracks down the EBL to estimate risk of collision. Gauging a line from the origin (range ring / EBL cross) through the target will give an indication of CPA from centre of screen. The edge of a short ruler may help, no need to draw.

More modern sets can do this and much more for you.

Thanks for this reminder. My 2009 Furuno LCD screen is probably very similar to your Raymarine in terms of basic functions, and I've tended in the past to only use the EBL rather than paper-plot as taught on my one-day course. Single-handed crossing the Channel this is the only practical way. But it gets trickier when there's a steady large convoy of shipping creeping closer down the left-hand side of the screen towards the middle (in real, sudden and thickening fog)... whereupon the radar's primary function was to tell me to turn around!

Coastal cruising this summer, intend to brush up my skills (and familiarity with the set) by setting myself blind-nav exercises.

BTW, does anyone know of an online simulator?

 

[st599]

Yes - the point is that he thought the same applied to radar, though it seems that may not have been correct.

Pete

There's no prerequisite to hold the certificate, but knowledge of how to use it for navigation and collision avoidance is required and can be examined during the exam, including plotting a scenario.

 

[st599]

Thanks for this reminder. My 2009 Furuno LCD screen is probably very similar to your Raymarine in terms of basic functions, and I've tended in the past to only use the EBL rather than paper-plot as taught on my one-day course. Single-handed crossing the Channel this is the only practical way. But it gets trickier when there's a steady large convoy of shipping creeping closer down the left-hand side of the screen towards the middle (in real, sudden and thickening fog)... whereupon the radar's primary function was to tell me to turn around!

Coastal cruising this summer, intend to brush up my skills (and familiarity with the set) by setting myself blind-nav exercises.

BTW, does anyone know of an online simulator?

There has been some discussion on the OpenCPN mailing list to create a simulator plugin for the built in radar interface. Not sure if it came to anything.

 

[GHA]

There has been some discussion on the OpenCPN mailing list to create a simulator plugin for the built in radar interface. Not sure if it came to anything.

There's an opencpn mailing list?
Got a link?

Ta

 

[dulls]

Thanks for this reminder. My 2009 Furuno LCD screen is probably very similar to your Raymarine in terms of basic functions, and I've tended in the past to only use the EBL rather than paper-plot as taught on my one-day course. Single-handed crossing the Channel this is the only practical way. But it gets trickier when there's a steady large convoy of shipping creeping closer down the left-hand side of the screen towards the middle (in real, sudden and thickening fog)... whereupon the radar's primary function was to tell me to turn around!

Coastal cruising this summer, intend to brush up my skills (and familiarity with the set) by setting myself blind-nav exercises.

BTW, does anyone know of an online simulator?

I had an old Koden radar all green etc. Ebl was used and nothing else. I thought most modern radars even on a yacht now leave a trace so you can tell which way the contact is going? If i had a choice between radar and Ais on a yacht i would go Ais everytime.

 

[srm]

If i had a choice between radar and Ais on a yacht i would go Ais everytime.

But very few rocks transmit an AIS position while many more return a radar signal, to say nothing of the fishing boats that I have seen on radar and identified visually before their AIS message is recieved. This has been observed enough times that I suspect they use a cut down antenna or old wire coat hanger to reduce their TX range.

I use AIS and dual band radar transponder which indicates when a signal is recieved. If conditions require it I also use radar. All these items and GPS are only aids to safe navigation, none give all the right answers all the time, and all can be misleading at times. Any item of information should be cross checked; eyeball and compass still have the final say on my boat if visibility allows.

 

[dulls]

But very few rocks transmit an AIS position while many more return a radar signal, to say nothing of the fishing boats that I have seen on radar and identified visually before their AIS message is recieved. This has been observed enough times that I suspect they use a cut down antenna or old wire coat hanger to reduce their TX range.

I use AIS and dual band radar transponder which indicates when a signal is recieved. If conditions require it I also use radar. All these items and GPS are only aids to safe navigation, none give all the right answers all the time, and all can be misleading at times. Any item of information should be cross checked; eyeball and compass still have the final say on my boat if visibility allows.

Harbour walls dont either and lets be realistic you have a GPS plotter. Those rocks are on your chart and are displayed accurately on your plotter. Unless many rocks have not been charted yet? 99 times out of a hundred ais will reveal the target long before radar does. Never used dual band so have no idea and i suspect most on here have not either. The down side of Ais is not everyone has it. I will take AIS everytime over radar. I cant answer the rock question as it is pedantic to be honest. I ran my ais all the time as it is low power, most yachts dont run the radar all the time unless they want to be a slave to charging. On a yacht i dont know anyone who sits looking at the radar all the time. If i was in fog and i know some wont like this i would rather have a plotter than a radar to take me safely into harbour. I do know how to navigate traditionally but lets be honest calling gps only an aid to navigation is pretty out dated. It is fantastic and reliable and i carry a battery hand held one as back up. I still carry paper charts.

 

[GHA]

I will take AIS everytime over radar.

Very different technologies, you really can't simplify it to an either/or comparison.

 

[dulls]

Very different technologies, you really can't simplify it to an either/or comparison.

I did not. I had both on my boat, my preference if i had a choice was to take AIS over Radar. We all have budgets and if i had limited funds that is what i would do. I would take a wind vane over an auto pilot as well. I would miss the autohelm though and eventually get it. I am not saying radar does not have its place. Either or comes into it all the time. Power, money type of sailing one does etc...I spent most of my early sailing without Radar or VHF and GPS to be honest and we did not know we needed them. I am also glad to be able to use these modern technologies as they make boating a lot less stressful.