Yellow Ribs Cardiff Bay (again)

[Sneds]

Sorry if this subject has been done to death but I was rather hoping someone at the company might frequent these fora.
I was in a "head-on/crossing" situation with one of these ribs at the weekend.
I steered to starboard as we approached each other, he carried on his course (maybe with a hint of port helm?) so I made a more pronounced turn to starboard clearly showing him my port side, he carried on so I stopped and he passed in front of me from left to right about 4ft away.
This all happened at about 4 kts luckily, had one of us been going quickly I'm sure a collision would have occurred.
I really think that as a professional mariner, the skipper of the rib should have exercised more care and awareness.
I must say also, that I did not change course to put me in a stand on position but to let him know I had made a move to allow him more sea room, initially we were approaching head on.

 

[carise]

The water buses are also very poor at making their intentions clear and a number of them have made me take drastic actions to avoid potential collisions - they seem oblivious to other users of the Bay and also seem oblivious to their responsibilities under local byelaws and ColRegs etc. It would seem that the mentality of the stereotypical bus/taxi driver (with no offense intended to any such users of this forum, whom I'm sure do not match such sterotypes ) has now transferred to the commercial users of the water, who should IMHO know better.

There is a reporting system for incidents or near misses within the Bay at http://www.cardiffharbour.com/content.asp?nav=12,107&parent_directory_id=1

& perhaps if more people reported incidents/near misses then those at fault might become more aware of their responsibilities and stop acting like fools. [end rant !!!!!!! )

 

[Allan]

I have never had any problems with the RIBs (or the buses) but I have heard of a number of incidents like the one above. However I think they should be made to show something, like a large number or coloured spots, so it is more obvious which one is involved. They all look the same to me.
Allan

 

[Sneds]

Thanks for the link, report submitted

 

[channel]

As an ex Waterbus skipper in Cardiff Bay (Princess Royal, Cygnet and Sapphire) I take some objection to your comment.

In 3 seasons I had 3 notable near miss situations - In one I was at fault 'racing for a berth' and hadn't left enough sea room (hands up, shoot me!) but in the others I had yachts tacking and putting me in a position with no sea room to allow a give way action. Not bad in over 2500 'trips around the bend' . . . sorry 'bay'!

Leisure boat movements within the bay can be very erratic at times and many commercial skippers will hold a course until they intentions of the other vessel are clear - it works both ways.

In the instance described here It reads to me that the RIB took a turn to Port in order to pass ahead of you - you having previously applied starboard helm?

You can of course use the Harbour Authorities report to raise concerns, with there already having been a MAIB report on an accident eyes will be on improving safety to users. Out of interest do Cardiff Harbour Authority publish an annual report for stakeholders?

The water buses are also very poor at making their intentions clear and a number of them have made me take drastic actions to avoid potential collisions - they seem oblivious to other users of the Bay and also seem oblivious to their responsibilities under local byelaws and ColRegs etc. It would seem that the mentality of the stereotypical bus/taxi driver (with no offense intended to any such users of this forum, whom I'm sure do not match such sterotypes ) has now transferred to the commercial users of the water, who should IMHO know better.

There is a reporting system for incidents or near misses within the Bay at http://www.cardiffharbour.com/content.asp?nav=12,107&parent_directory_id=1

& perhaps if more people reported incidents/near misses then those at fault might become more aware of their responsibilities and stop acting like fools. [end rant !!!!!!! )

 

[Allan]

I have seen bad seamanship and lack of consideration on both sides. Yesterday I saw a visiting yacht at the Taff buoys being overtaken by the Aquabus who increased his speed exiting the buoys when going a few more metres would have been much more considerate. I have been in the same place and the Aquabus driver was a true gent.
The most inept "professional" I have ever seen was a yellow RIB driver in the lock. All of the others have been top quality and I have seen them hundreds of times.
Allan

 

[Sneds]

Took a turn to port to pass ahead of me?

Are you being serious in suggesting that is an appropriate manoeuvre?

 

[channel]

Of course not - I was questioning your description of the actions the RIB took! Simply seeking clarification of your left to right description. I assume you mean passing ahead of you from your port to starboard side.

You turned to straboard as per COLREGS (14 a). You then stopped having taken a further alteration of course to starboard and took way off (Rule 17 a part ii (?)). The RIB to have passed ahead of you he would have had to have made a broad alteration to port clearly contriving the rules.

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to sound 5 short blasts to me at the point the rib took no action, you having made an initial alteration of course. Good call in stopping to avoid collision as i see it.

Be interested to know the response from CHA.

Out of interest where in the Bay did this happen?

Took a turn to port to pass ahead of me?

Are you being serious in suggesting that is an appropriate manoeuvre?

 

[Sneds]

Now I see what you mean. Sorry if I misunderstood your comments.
Re the location, we were about 1/3 across from the locks to Mermaid Quay.

 

[watermint]

u can get thows yellow ribs closd down over nite , lots of reports to te (RYA) or the yellow ribs will be listed with ( Lloyd's register of shipping ) i think its Lloyd's register and the yellow ribs cood be closd down over nite of a fue reports ?

Managing Logistics & Transport Agreements: Contracts, Insurance Liability & Claims
http://www.informaglobalevents.com/event/Multimodal-Logistics-and-Transport-Contracts-Seminar

Certificate in Chartering course delivered by distance learning
http://www.informaglobalevents.com/event/chartering-distance-learning-course

http://www.informaglobalevents.com/...lter/Lloyd’s+Maritime+Academy;Contracts+&+Law

oley take a fue pepol to put som reports in to them ?

 

[Allan]

Why would anyone want to close down the RIBs? They provide employment for the area and allow lots of people to enjoy the bay and just outside the locks. Everything like this needs to be done safely and correctly. As I said before, to aid the reporting procedure, it would be good to be able to identify the RIBs more easily. Bad seamanship is bad seamanship, it does not matter who is responsible for it, a reporting system and sanctions placed on the perpetrators are the way forward, in my opinion.
The latest speed limit area is a good move forward, as was making the Aquabus obey the Taff speed limit.
Allan

 

[Sneds]

Couldn't agree more

 

[Frobscottle]

I think putting a complaint into the company that owns the boat involved in any incident would help as well. Nine times out of ten in my experience, anything put through the complaints system tends to go under the radar. I find it a lot more effective to call the barrage up and have them note the incident down. They will usually hail the offender over the radio or send out one of the harbour boys to have a quiet word. I had a major complaint about one boat owner and reported to the barrage and also the yacht club he belonged to; got an apology with a couple days.

With regards to the Aquabus in the Taff, the company has a speed allowance. When Channel View started to have a lot of rowing in the Taff, the speed allowance to CV was then stopped for obvious safety reasons.

Getting companies shut down over a misjudgement of one skipper is very cut throat and hardly going to solve the problem. Communication and constant relations between private and commercial users in the bay is key. Going off guns blazing never works. Unless you're Rambo.

 

[chanelyacht]

u can get thows yellow ribs closd down over nite , lots of reports to te (RYA) or the yellow ribs will be listed with ( Lloyd's register of shipping ) i think its Lloyd's register and the yellow ribs cood be closd down over nite of a fue reports ?

Managing Logistics & Transport Agreements: Contracts, Insurance Liability & Claims
http://www.informaglobalevents.com/event/Multimodal-Logistics-and-Transport-Contracts-Seminar

Certificate in Chartering course delivered by distance learning
http://www.informaglobalevents.com/event/chartering-distance-learning-course

http://www.informaglobalevents.com/...lter/Lloyd’s+Maritime+Academy;Contracts+&+Law

oley take a fue pepol to put som reports in to them ?

I'm sure the above is provided with the best intent, but to clarify the actual authorities worth contacting, my advice would be :

Talk to the company concerned,
Talk to the Harbour Authority (Cardiff City Council)
As a last resort, MCA Enforcement or the MAIB in the case of a close quarters / actual collision.

The RYA are not responsible for continuous licensing of passenger operations.
Nor do Lloyd's Register - they are an information service.

 

[bootleg]

i think the facts are that the majority of RIB skippers within cardiff bay are using the RYA advanced powerboat certificate with a commercial endorsement so a complaint to the RYA would be perfectly valid, check your facts before condeming others otherwise you just come accross as a pompous twit!

 

[chanelyacht]

i think the facts are that the majority of RIB skippers within cardiff bay are using the RYA advanced powerboat certificate with a commercial endorsement so a complaint to the RYA would be perfectly valid, check your facts before condeming others otherwise you just come accross as a pompous twit!

And still the fact is that the RYA don't have anything to do with the licensing of passenger vessels . Part of the job description laid down by the company may, or may not, include PB2 CE, but the comment "you could get these yellow ribs closed down overnight...by a few reports to the RYA" is completely wrong.

If there really is such a problem, the licensing authority (presumably Cardiff City Council) would be the one to revoke any operators licence, possible via action by the MCA Enforcement branch.

First port of call for genuine near-miss situations would also be MAIB.

The RYA would pull the certification of an instructor (as happened recently) but they have no authority to pull a PB2 certificate, as it is merely a snapshot of ability at a point in time, not a licence to operate.

So I'd suggest you check your own posts for accuracy and potential pompous twit-ism .

 

[bootleg]

channel yacht you are a pompous twit and obviously are woefully unaware of the commercial situation within the bay high speed ribs which operate within the bay must have a skipper with a minimum of RYA advanced power boat certificate with a commercial endorsement where you get the notion that a PB2 is sufficiant is beyond me? RYA advanced powerboat certificate can and does get revoked by the rya ! your arrogance towards other forum users is astounding particularly in light of your ignorance on the subject under discussion !

 

[Sneds]

I do resent my post being used for personal insults, I was making a valid point with my OP and if you want to join in, discus or even disagree please do so but there is no need for rudeness!

 

[Allan]

Sheds, I totally agree about the insults. This forum has, so far, been able to avoid that sort of thing. One fact I can add, Bristol job centre had a RIB driving job advertised in the bay. They were asking for PB2.
Allan

 

[chanelyacht]

channel yacht you are a pompous twit and obviously are woefully unaware of the commercial situation within the bay high speed ribs which operate within the bay must have a skipper with a minimum of RYA advanced power boat certificate with a commercial endorsement where you get the notion that a PB2 is sufficiant is beyond me? RYA advanced powerboat certificate can and does get revoked by the rya ! your arrogance towards other forum users is astounding particularly in light of your ignorance on the subject under discussion !

1. I'm fully aware of the situation in the bay, I sail there regularly.
2. I accidentally missed the "A" off when I stated PB2CE, which should have read APB2CE.
3. You still ignore the fact that the RYA do not license passenger boat operations so that the original statement that complaining to the RYA would "shut these rib down overnight" was wrong.
4. Can you quote an example of an APB2CE being revoked on conduct grounds? The medical part can be revoked on date or non-compliance grounds, but I've never heard of revoking one on conduct grounds in 10 years of instructing the things. Happy to be proved wrong though...
5. As for "arrogance", I'll leave you to your belief that throwing insults i the way to prove how astoundingly intelligent you are. Regardless of the "situation within the bay", the post concerned was wrong. Lloyds Register? RYA closing down operators?
6. As I stated, if there is a "situation", the course of action is the Harbour Authority and MCA Enforcement Branch, depending on the quals held by the skipper concerned. Personally, I would have thought the sensible, non-inflammatory route would be to discuss the issues with the company concerned.

Oh - and which of your versions is accurate btw ? -

must have a skipper with a minimum of RYA advanced power boat certificate with a commercial endorsement

or

the facts are that the majority of RIB skippers within cardiff bay are using the RYA advanced powerboat certificate with a commercial endorsement

Is it "must have" or "majority have" ?