Yachts for Sale Descriptions

[LittleSister]

Having acquired those facts, you have then a basis for comparisons with similar vessels and their asking prices. I don't imagine for a second that this will be the end of the story but it gives you a means of performing an initial analysis of the "condition" of essential elements and value for money. In fact, it does more than that. If the rigging, sails and AP have been replaced it might suggest that the owner is a sailor and that his enthusiasm might feed into a conscientious overall approach to upkeep. Similarly, I try to look beyond the images of the boat. I think that you can tell a lot from the "housekeeping". My motivation is to try and avoid that dreadful moment when having just driven 200 miles you are presented with a lemon.
A final word on " serviceable". A spray hood might be serviceable because it stops water from dripping down your neck even though it's window might be opaque, stitching undone and fastenings broken. "As new, very good, good, poor and needs replacing"might give much less scope for ambiguity. A final final word. If the information isn't in the ad I will ask for it so it will save brokers, owners and interested parties like me a lot of wasted time if it's provided in the first place.

I think you have strange idea of what a fact is. That an item is usable and performs its basic function means, by definition, it is 'serviceable': i.e. (if true) is a fact. That some new owner would wish to replace it because a newer one would be more effective, pleasing or reliable does not mean it is not a fact.

To give an example, the mainsail on my previous boat was tired, baggy, stained, probably 30 years old, and not capable of good performance, but that did not mean it was not serviceable. Indeed, it successfully propelled the boat in my ownership thousands of miles, including cruising most places from Devon to Norfolk, the Channel Islands, and the French north coast from Roscoff to Calais. That it was serviceable was a fact.

Did it need replacing? That is not a matter of fact, but of judgement, taking into account, for example, owner's finances, desire for sailing performance, etc.

I judged I couldn't afford a new one. Eventually I came across a second-hand replacement (amazing for a boat of which only a dozen were built). It was a fact it was at least 25 years old. Another fact was that it had never been used, and had spent its life in the loft of the owner's house! (When I took it to my local sailmaker, the senior hand doing a minor addition to the sail for me thought he had made it himself when he was a young apprentice there!)

Many would judge that the 40 year old engine of my current boat (not to mention the boat itself!) ought to be replaced: it's hugely heavy, quite noisy, less reliable than a newer one, and very likely much nearer the end of its working life than the beginning. I judge that replacing it is beyond my means. The fact is it is serviceable, proven by it having propelled the boat hither and thither without breakdown, both locally and to France twice, over a couple of years and a few hundred hours.

I agree with you that describing something as, variously, 'as new, very good, good [or] poor' is usually helpful (though don't assume such descriptions are necessarily accurate!). I cannot agree saying something is 'in need of replacing' reduces ambiguity: it is purely a matter of judgement, unless it doesn't work, in which case it's best described as 'non-functioning' or 'unserviceable'.

I think you can safely assume that anything described as 'serviceable' is not going to be in great condition. You would then have to inspect it to decide whether your judgement is it should be replaced.

I think you will be very disappointed if you think that brokers and selling owners care a fig about wasting your time. Most don't seem that bothered about wasting their own, or even selling the boat! There certainly are honourable exceptions, but in my experience (at the bottom end of the market) they are few and far between, especially among brokers.

As Photodog says, 'Welcome to boat buying'!

 

[[70521]]

Why is it that so many for sale ads lack the key elemenwts such as engine hours, age and condition of sails, age of standing rigging and the type and vintage of the autopilot?

Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.

 

[francophile51]

Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.

If I am looking for a specific sailing yacht and I find one with an engine total of 1000 hours and another with 5000 hours both with satisfactory maintenance records ,both performing satisfactorily and all other things being equal, I think that I would opt for the more lightly used one.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.

*sticks oar in* Couple of reasons, it's the same for cars too. Engines are only designed to last for so many miles (in the case of boats that translates better to hours). The more engine hours the less life the engine probably has in it, if it has been 'reasonably' maintained. If maintenance is carried out to manufacturers spec, the engine should last way longer than prescribed. If the engine has not been maintained very well, you're probably looking at knocking a few years off that before a replacement is required. It may not be that much of a factor if you don't use the engine much.

I am gonna assume you maintain your engine reasonably well? (Regular oil/filter changes? Check the pipes/belts and gaskets?). I don't recall volvo being known as 'reliable' though XD.

 

[xyachtdave]

If I am looking for a specific sailing yacht and I find one with an engine total of 1000 hours and another with 5000 hours both with satisfactory maintenance records ,both performing satisfactorily and all other things being equal, I think that I would opt for the more lightly used one.

Why?

It's likely to be in worse condition with less hours as it's probably only been used for quick bursts in and out of marinas/moorings without ever reaching its operating temperature.

 

[lw395]

I think most brokers would be less than keen to advertise a boat as having an engine of '2000 hours' or whatever if they were not completely convinced that was a prove-able fact.
It's like the old days of clocking cars, these days if you buy a vehicle where the speedo has been replaced, you will see a huge disclaimer saying the mileage should not be relied on.
A boat that's been through a handful of owners might have had the hour meter replaced. Or it might only have been fitted later in life, or it may not always have worked.
To trust that a 10 year old engine was 'low hours' I'd want to see serious documentation. You cannot even rely on the ship's log, as boats can knock up a lot of hours idling or moving around the harbour for various reasons. It's amazing how many engine hours can rack up racing a sailing yacht.

 

[[70521]]

*sticks oar in* Couple of reasons, it's the same for cars too. Engines are only designed to last for so many miles (in the case of boats that translates better to hours). The more engine hours the less life the engine probably has in it, if it has been 'reasonably' maintained. If maintenance is carried out to manufacturers spec, the engine should last way longer than prescribed. If the engine has not been maintained very well, you're probably looking at knocking a few years off that before a replacement is required. It may not be that much of a factor if you don't use the engine much.

I am gonna assume you maintain your engine reasonably well? (Regular oil/filter changes? Check the pipes/belts and gaskets?). I don't recall volvo being known as 'reliable' though XD.

Do you have any evidence to support your comments?

 

[NotBirdseye]

The comments that Engines are only designed to last for so many miles? Take your pick, Rolls Royce, Royal Engineers, Ford, Toyota. It is a critical part of the design phase as is wear and tear. They expect an engine to last x amount of years/miles/running hours. They won't reveal what x is, for 'commercial' reasons but they'll happily confirm they do it. There are at least a couple of reasons behind that, firstly when to sell the next engine (I'm not cynical XD), safety (if the engine goes down it needs to do so relatively safely so other parts are built accordingly), to reduce cost/maximise profit, to support environmental reasons (Iron engine v other lighter materials).

As for Volvo. Warranties direct, ask any trucker, Business Insider, Cruisers Forum ('The Green Death' I kid you not). They're very powerful, but reliability is...well, not so hot.

*when compared to similar engines of similar size by other manufacturers.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

We brought and so,d boats through a broker and privately over 40 years .
Take what you read in ads and brokers listing with a pinch of salt ,
The last boat we sold , was sold mainly just on a video we made ,
It was so long we had to spit it in three , every sq Yd long the hull , keel and in side including engine was filmed . Much better then photos , when the time comes to sell again I be going the same .

Vic, I'm aware of the reasons you will prefer video, but I'm afraid that a video as the only description of a boat would totally preclude me from even looking - I hate being made to wait through a video when a text description and a few photos would do the job equally well; the difference is that still photos and text allow me to take in information at the rate I control; videos force me to take it at the rate the video allows. And I read and take in visual information at a rate much faster than a real-time video allows, and prefer non-linear presentation mode that allow me to skip backwards and forwards at will.

I'd agree that a video might be useful addition to a sales description, as I am well aware that my attitude to video presentation of information is a minority one, but if it was the only presentation of information, I'd skip the ad.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

YBut the same is valid for publicly available housing prices which does makes sense for understanding the housing market. In a similar manner you can assess price ranges of boats of a particular brand, size and age. So, yes IMHO it does help to have some understanding of realistic sales prices.

But the value of a house has little relationship to the house itself; the land it is built on is (in many parts of the UK) much more valuable than the house; that's why prices vary so widely across the country. Way back, many people were caught out as follows - they relied on the fact that a lender was prepared to lend on the basis of its then private and undisclosed valuation survey as a proxy for the state of the property when buying a house, and were dismayed to find their house falling down or exhibiting major defects when they moved in. The reason was simple - the land was worth what the lenders were prepared to offer, so the house itself was irrelevant to the security offered to the lender. While the location of a boat does impact the price likely to be achieved, it isn't anything like as significant as the location of a house, where average property prices vary by a factor of maybe 6 between the highest and lowest valued areas. And, of course, boats are mobile!

Just for example, I live in a modest brick built three bed town-house with a small garden near Ely. By selling it and buying property in my home town in the woollen district of Yorkshire, I could upgrade to a vast stone-built mansion with substantial grounds; the sort of house a mill-owner would have had. And that's not fantasy - I happened to check for specific properties a year ago, just for interest.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The cost of the survey I'm perfectly okay with, it tells me whether I want to walk away from the deal or not. If seller is not prepared to budge (or I think the boat isn't worth the repair costs), I'll let the seller know and walk away. A survey is non-destructive and no damage should ever be incurred (will promptly go after the surveyor if any damage is done). I think any buyer is entitled to have a full view of what they are purchasing before any money changes hands. If that means pulling the boat out of the water (of course paid for by the potential buyer) without deposit/contract, so be it. That's how it worked when I've done other large purchases, but it seems boats are their own special case.

If the survey is a £2,000 and the boat is £12,000 and the surveyor says, "Run." Then he's saved me £10,000 and probably no end of repair costs. You have to be prepared to walk away from a deal at the end of the day.

Edit: Oops, I wasn't actually intending to bring Brexit into this thread.

A survey worth the paper it's written on MAY cause minor damage - for example, I have coppercoat on my boat, and if the surveyor wished to determine the water content of the hull, he would probably have to remove it from several small areas of the hull to get moisture readings. Patching coppercoat is non-trivial. There are many similar examples where a surveyor might have to cause minor damage in order to determine the condition of a boat - nothing that isn't regarded as normal maintenance, but more than I would tolerate without an agreement that the boat is sold "subject to survey". There are other issues around the cost of lifting in and out of the water - who pays for any required lifts?

 

[jonic]

Vic, I'm aware of the reasons you will prefer video, but I'm afraid that a video as the only description of a boat would totally preclude me from even looking - I hate being made to wait through a video when a text description and a few photos would do the job equally well; the difference is that still photos and text allow me to take in information at the rate I control; videos force me to take it at the rate the video allows. And I read and take in visual information at a rate much faster than a real-time video allows, and prefer non-linear presentation mode that allow me to skip backwards and forwards at will.

I'd agree that a video might be useful addition to a sales description, as I am well aware that my attitude to video presentation of information is a minority one, but if it was the only presentation of information, I'd skip the ad.

Actually you are not in the minority at all. We have now researched this extensively. It varies from market to market, but really interested buyers - rather than those watching for entertainment, want a short (circa 3 min), easy to understand walkthrough that they can pause as they wish. We used to film a 15min video with a voice over but feedback has been more as you outlined in your post.

So now we shoot short, non-voiced, clearly defined areas of the boat in a logical sequence. The detail is then in the text description and further detail specific to that buyer will be over the phone and finally in person.

http://www.jryachts.com/yachts-for-sale/oyster-56/1776479

Even the video in the one above will be too long for some people and will be scrolled through to suit, but it's a reasonably happy medium and works in tandem with the photography.

 

[prv]

Actually you are not in the minority at all. We have now researched this extensively. It varies from market to market, but really interested buyers - rather than those watching for entertainment, want a short (circa 3 min), easy to understand walkthrough that they can pause as they wish. We used to film a 15min video with a voice over but feedback has been more as you outlined in your post.

Good, because I'd agree.

Video is great for some things - demonstrating some hands-on technique, for instance - but it's otherwise not a very information-dense form of communication.

In boat listings I find it good for two things -

1. Filling in the gaps when the selection of photos is poor. "They didn't think to show what's in that other corner, but maybe it's in the background of a sweeping shot as the cameraman turns round...". Not a problem on your listings, I'm sure
2. Showing the layout when it's not apparent from the photos or obvious for the type of boat. And actually, I'd probably prefer a picture of the accommodation plan to look at, rather than putting it together in my head from several minutes of video.

No harm in having a video on there as well as the writing and pictures. But I know on Boatshed for example, I very rarely click on them.

Pete

 

[prv]

http://www.jryachts.com/yachts-for-sale/oyster-56/1776479

Totally irrelevant to this thread, but having now looked at the listing I'm curious - what's the contraption on the cockpit bulkhead next to the helmsman's left foot? I can see what looks like a pressure gauge, and something that could be a line-handling gadget off a racing dinghy, and then in one of the wider shots it looks like a large knob or handle at the bottom.

Also if she was mine I would totally replace that panel on the aft face of the binnacle with the builder's name and address smack in the middle of it. Fine for a nice plate tucked away somewhere, but the helmsman doesn't need to spend thousands of miles looking at the showroom ticket

Pete

 

[sailaboutvic]

Went I sold my last boat privately, which we did because we felt not only the brokers in that part of Greece both UK brokers by the way , not only had a very bad reputation with both sellers and buyer , but the sale valve we was told that would sell our boat I felt was very low .

We had six year old boat which I had from new , equip to the hill and Very well kept and maintained,
they where compare it with ex charter some much older which where sold .
and it seen I was right , has we sold it privately for many more thousand of pounds after taken a offer .

We build a wed site with full details of the boat , we added photos to that site and we also added the film we taken , which was so long it had to be broken in three parts .
We put ads in Apollo Duck and the yacht market ,
before the film was added to our web site we got hardly any responds ,
And the once we did get was from brokers offing to take the boat on .

There was six other Dufour 385 on the market cheaper then our , within 10 days of adding the film on the web site emails started arriving
On the basics of the film We I had a contract sign and deposit paid within 20 days of the film added to the site at the same time we had three people flying out to view , the first guy who view after known we had two more coming to view sign a contract the next day .
Conversation I had with all three was they where only coming out because of the film , suggesting where made that they fed up viewing boat when the photo didn't match up to the boats they where viewing .

I admin we only had one boat to sell so it was time consuming making the film and it took us hours to get it right , but it paid off

There a big different between a private sell and a broker , the private sell only as one boat to sell where the broker has many and if a viewer doesn't like what he see the broker may steer him into another boat .

I only have my experience to go by and when the time comes to sell again I will be doing the same thing .
It's the end result that matters not what others may think.

 

[jonic]

Totally irrelevant to this thread, but having now looked at the listing I'm curious - what's the contraption on the cockpit bulkhead next to the helmsman's left foot? I can see what looks like a pressure gauge, and something that could be a line-handling gadget off a racing dinghy, and then in one of the wider shots it looks like a large knob or handle at the bottom.

Pete

Hydraulic backstay and vang adjustment from cockpit

 

[NotBirdseye]

A survey worth the paper it's written on MAY cause minor damage - for example, I have coppercoat on my boat, and if the surveyor wished to determine the water content of the hull, he would probably have to remove it from several small areas of the hull to get moisture readings. Patching coppercoat is non-trivial. There are many similar examples where a surveyor might have to cause minor damage in order to determine the condition of a boat - nothing that isn't regarded as normal maintenance, but more than I would tolerate without an agreement that the boat is sold "subject to survey". There are other issues around the cost of lifting in and out of the water - who pays for any required lifts?

The potential buyer would pay for any lift (and return to previous condition if necessary).

Now, I'll largely defer to your experience (and assume that some damage may be necessary), but from what I can tell... isn't it more efficient to measure water content from *inside* rather than outside the hull? (David Pascoe, Yachtsurvey) Would that not get around that particular one? I know very little GRP osmosis however. I appreciate that's not the point and perhaps another test may require damage .

Provided the potential buyer is willing to put right any 'damage' no matter how minor, then I don't see the 'sold subject to survey' as a requirement. Any destructive tests deemed necessary should be agreed prior to them being carried out and it's up to the buyer to walk away if they're not happy with not being able to do them. As an owner I wouldn't be happy without some kind of compensation if any damage were to be incurred.

Of course by that point the surveyor has probably said, "Yep, the boat looks to be lovely condition (as far as non destructive tests are concerned)", so you're probably prepared to commit to the "sold subject to survey" at any rate.

 

[prv]

Hydraulic backstay and vang adjustment from cockpit

Thanks - with so much after-deck between cockpit and backstay I can see why you'd want that

Pete

 

[jonic]

Thanks - with so much after-deck between cockpit and backstay I can see why you'd want that

Pete

:encouragement:

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The potential buyer would pay for any lift (and return to previous condition if necessary).

Now, I'll largely defer to your experience (and assume that some damage may be necessary), but from what I can tell... isn't it more efficient to measure water content from *inside* rather than outside the hull? (David Pascoe, Yachtsurvey) Would that not get around that particular one? I know very little GRP osmosis however. I appreciate that's not the point and perhaps another test may require damage .

Provided the potential buyer is willing to put right any 'damage' no matter how minor, then I don't see the 'sold subject to survey' as a requirement. Any destructive tests deemed necessary should be agreed prior to them being carried out and it's up to the buyer to walk away if they're not happy with not being able to do them. As an owner I wouldn't be happy without some kind of compensation if any damage were to be incurred.

Of course by that point the surveyor has probably said, "Yep, the boat looks to be lovely condition (as far as non destructive tests are concerned)", so you're probably prepared to commit to the "sold subject to survey" at any rate.

I merely gave moisture content as an example, where surveyors commonly remove patches of antifoul to perform the test - access to the exterior of a hull is MUCH better than access to the interior, and internal coverings may interfere with the test and cause even more damage than external access. But there are other things that may cause minor damage; surveyors carry out physical probes of material with spikes, knives and hammers. No-one is doing a survey on my boat without a firm commitment to proceed in the shape of a deposit, which would be refundable if the survey turned up something that said "walk away" (which isn't going to happen).

Frankly, I don't see the problem. If you like a boat and she has the features you want, then the purpose of the survey isn't to help you decide whether or not this is the boat for you - it is to determine the condition of this particular example, and whether there are any unforeseen problems that merit negotiation on price or (in the very worst case) walking away. If you aren't certain whether a boat is for you, then it's probably a waste of time and money having a survey - the survey won't help you make up your mind, it will simply tell you the condition of the boat. Whether it's the right boat for you depends on other factors that are personal to you, and the only person who can decide that is you - not a surveyor.