Yachtmaster time limit?

[Seagreen]

Still leaves me feeling... needlessly "unworthy" about something. Maybe I should spend the money on psychoanalysis instead. If fact, that's the nub of the issue. I feel that my years of experience do count for something and I'd like to have this validated by someone else, and to find out that all those experiences "don't count", is fundamentally horrible. I shall now sell my boat, as I'm so unworthy. I'll also post my (clean) driving licence back to the DVLA and become a Hermit...

 

[dt4134]

I don't believe it is a hard and fast rule, it is just to stop people wasting their time and money taking the exam and failing it.

My understanding is that anyone can just turn up with a crew and take the exam in their own boat. However the instructors I've spoken to seem pretty jealous of their success rate and don't seem to like putting forward candidates that they don't think will pass. If you want to do it on a sailing school boat then you'd need to discuss that with them.

If you haven't sailed much for the last ten years you might find your rustiness exposed by the examiner.

 

[LadyInBed]

10 year to get the qualifying hours and distance
Then you pass the exam
You do no sailing for 10 years but you are still 'qualified'.
If that was also the case with a driving licence, you would have a clean licence and no claims, so be looked on as a good safe driver!

Funny old world isn't it

 

[mcframe]

In my experience (and this is not the official view) examiners are far more interested in where you have been sailing rather than when you did it. i.e Someone can clock up the mileage going up and down the Solent but it doesn't count for much.

Why do you say that?

I found taking own boat +wife&kids into and out of Bembridge/Ryde/Pompey/Cowes/Newport/Yarmouth, etc, (in a variety of wx) more challenging than anything I ever did on a *fully-crewed* school boat in all courses up to CS exam.

On the other hand if your log book shows a variety of locations, conditions, boats etc the examiner isn't going to spend too much time adding up the mileage against dates.

That sounds helpful - I did CC on the Solent, DS on the Clyde, CS (course) out of Dartmouth and CS (exam) out of Walton. After a number of X-Channels & some racing on other boats, I've got the miles and I'm thinking about booking a YM exam over the winter - out of Chichester - it's a small boat, and as I'm normally effectively single-handed, more than one crew+examiner is a crowd.

Any advice gratefully received - I'm guessing that brushing up on colregs is more important than demonstrating my solo chute-launch skills ;->

 

[dt4134]

... and as I'm normally effectively single-handed, more than one crew+examiner is a crowd.

Any advice gratefully received...

They seem to focus a lot on crew management skills at YM level too.

 

[mcframe]

They seem to focus a lot on crew management skills at YM level too.

I'm guessing this doesn't quite count

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

Would you get in a car with someone who after passing their test, had not driven for 15 years and then starting driving?

In my own experience, most but not all of the last 10 year has been coastal daysailing, with a few channel crossings. There ought to be some recognition of experience gained, with say, a clearer distinction between commercial and pleasure certificates. This "one size fits all" approach is clearly wrong.

So the few channel crossings should tick of at least three of the 60 mile passages and the coastal daysailing for ten yrs clocks up the miles. You must have a fair few of the miles. How short of the minimum requirements actually are you?

A YM examiner once told me his benchmark for passing/ failing is would he allow this candidate to take his (the examiners)children on an offshore passage.

Exactly the criteria a lot of us use. If I would not trust them to make the right decision when skippering my family across the channel then they don't get their Yachtmaster Offshore, if i get the feeling the candidate is someone I would trust to look after my family at sea then he passes.

I would imagine it is because the ICC rules can change as they are made by the "international" community. So changes could well happen in the near future and therefore a lifetime ticket would not be appropriate.

UN resolution sates 5 yrs for the ICC, MCA expect the RYA to follow it. Its hardly a burden though. Fill in a form once every 5 yrs at no charge (if your a member) and in return you get a certificate that allows you to sail in lots of foreign countries where the only legal alternative is to follow the local training system which is only taught in their language. If you don't want to support UK boating then its circa £8/yr.

Now if, in the great scheme of things, politicians start to puff out their CV's, both in the UK and Europe, never mind other parts of the world, with more need for "qualifications" for "safety" especially if they pick on soft targets like sailing, using the 'wealth and privilege' stick (I've precious little of either), who is to say that my sailing days won't be curtailed by some jobsworth because I don't have the right paperwork? This would also hinder me chartering a boat in some areas of the world, should I wish to.

Do you have any evidence that politicians and charter companies are going to start asking for Yachtmaster Offshore as a minimum standard of licensing? If you really believe that they will, you need to get out there and enjoy some sailing (while logging miles) while you can.

I also object to being labelled as "unqualified" as I don't meet some subjective "criteria". .

Can you tell us of one single worthwhile qualification in anything at all that does not have a "subjective criteria"?

Why no time limit for Coastal, if its Sooo necessary for the Offshore Skipper?

The same time limit applies for Yachtmaster Coastal and all RYA Certificate of Competence exams.

Can I be sure that my chances of getting insurance won't reduce or start becoming stupidly expensive over the next few years if I can't get a "YM discount"? Now do you see the problem?

Your not suggesting that because your insurance company may look upon a successful product and decide to make themsleves totally uncompetative that the RYA should lower the standard of entry to the Yachtmaster exam are you?

@ Mark-1
Its just the attitude that "experience doesn't count/ isn't relevant" that irks me. I could say that I didn't care, but I obviously do. And its just another example of creeping beaurocracy.

I don't think this is bureaucracy, its common sense. I think the diving and flying examples given earlier are very relevant.

Anyway the good news is you have something to aim for and once you have topped up your current mileage to hit the magic number you can take the exam and prove how good you are. Then once you have achieved the Yachtmaster you can look back and say how relevant or not the pre requisites were.

Interestingly I do not know a single qualified skipper or Captain at any level that looks back and believes the sea-time requirements need to be reduced. Funnily enough its usually those who don't have the mileage that can't understand why the requirement is there, I understand your case is different and you have done the miles, however a ten year gap brining up a family changes a lot. The Yachtmaster is not a walk in the park, if it was easy you would have no interest in doing it

 

[Lady Campanula]

Interestingly I do not know a single qualified skipper or Captain at any level that looks back and believes the sea-time requirements need to be reduced.​

I seem to recall hearing that the average YM candidate presents with over 10,000nm under the belt, one way or another. Maybe that was before the days of 'Zero To Hero - and back again' when Grumpy Ol' Bill ran a tight ship, and there was no question of the standard being let slip.

In addition to the existing quite modest requirement for a limited range of seatime involving both day and night, I'd like to see evidence of sailing different types of boat. A callow yooth clutching a fresh YM sustificate, but who has only ever sailed in the same easily-handled 32' school boat, is likely to find him/herself challenged when asked by a family with lesser qualifications to navigate a 50' Moody down the Chenal du Four at night, in the rain, overcanvassed, and meeting a SW swell halfway down - or deciding who in the crew can be trusted to keep a safe and effective watch, cross-channel towards Alderney, calling one up when truly needed, while said YM gets some 'power napping' in before the oft-complex night approach to Braye harbour, missing the breakwater end.

It's not the boat handling. It's the decision-making ahead of the need, and that's experience-based.

Oh, and I lost my first RYA Logbook, with around 10k sea miles, and had to start again. Or rather, just continue doing what I'd been doing for many years - going sailing when the opportunity came around. Like most of the rest of us.

 

[Danny Jo]

I'm not saying I'm different, but this thread had me searching for the name of the mythical character that seems to be the overseer of this and so many other worthy YM threads. (Well, I'm old, and it's long past my bed time.) Failing to recall it, I resorted to Google. Top of the list is:

Narcissus

 

[Skylark]

What an interesting thread, great to read.

Thank goodness that there are people like Doug and M'Lady on these forums to help the rest of we mere mortals to see things from the perspective of their wealth of knowledge and experience.

 

[Mark-1]

deciding who in the crew can be trusted to keep a safe and effective watch, cross-channel towards Alderney, calling one up when truly needed, while said YM gets some 'power napping' in before the oft-complex night approach to Braye harbour, missing the breakwater end.

Braye has leading lights.

 

[Talulah]

Bit of thread drift:
I had a guy on board last weekend who had just completed his YM zero to hero course at UKSA. (3 month course.) The guy himself had previously done some dinghy sailing many years ago but that was it. At the end of the course he passed the YM Exam. Using the test above about would I trust him to take my offspring across Channel then the answer was ' Yes'. He was very capable. During the course they got to use several different boats ranging from an old Westerley through to a Clipper 67. They sailed most of the South Coast and some of North France/Channel Islands in a range of conditions. There were 50 on the course with a 10% fail rate. The guy was definately a positive image for these courses. I was suitably impressed.

 

[Keen_Ed]

ITYF you're not allowed an opinion like that.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Bit of thread drift:
I had a guy on board last weekend who had just completed his YM zero to hero course at UKSA. (3 month course.) The guy himself had previously done some dinghy sailing many years ago but that was it. At the end of the course he passed the YM Exam. Using the test above about would I trust him to take my offspring across Channel then the answer was ' Yes'. He was very capable. During the course they got to use several different boats ranging from an old Westerley through to a Clipper 67. They sailed most of the South Coast and some of North France/Channel Islands in a range of conditions. There were 50 on the course with a 10% fail rate. The guy was definately a positive image for these courses. I was suitably impressed.

That's fine. That's as it should be - and you should know.

....But it isn't always like that.

 

[Sailfree]

That's fine. That's as it should be - and you should know.

....But it isn't always like that.

Is this an attitude problem from those that have a deep doubt about the value of education and courses and because they learnt all they know by 10yrs before the mast (aft?) everyone else should do the same.

Learning by experience is good but it is slow compared to intensive courses.

 

[Enya]

In one of the magazines, I think it was Tom Cunliffe said that Yachtmaster Offshore, which is actually what is being discussed here, should reflect skills that are required when a weather forecast cannot give a clear weather window by which I think he meant a few days at sea. Yachtmaster Coastal previously Coastal Skipper reflects skills which allow for a much more predictable weather situation. With modern technology a channel crossing is not a great test of the Offshore ability.

Perhaps it is time to view these qualifications a little differently. What is so bad about Yachtmaster Coastal? I suspect it requires full competence in the Solent and it draws the line at severe weather conditions rather than boat handling skills.

Given that sailing is not only a brain thing but also a brawn and stamina thing, I think there is an argument for recent testing experience and evidence of it.

Maybe the RYA should come up front and more clearly state what they are testing by each exam.

 

[LadyInBed]

Is this an attitude problem from those that have a deep doubt about the value of education and courses and because they learnt all they know by 10yrs before the mast (aft?) everyone else should do the same.

Learning by experience is good but it is slow compared to intensive courses.

AFAIAC it is not the value of education and courses (fast or slow track) but what happens after the qualification.
Regular sailing, whether on own, others or charter boat - great
But an occasional charter in the Med maybe every 3 or 5 years is the scenario that makes me question someone's ability.
(That's why I have previously likened it to driving.)

 

[Seagreen]

..Narcissus

So let me make things just a teensy bit clearer for some of you who may have got hold of the impression that I assumed I was fully capable of strolling through the YM course after not having stepped on board a dinghy for 30 years...

As it happens, until 2002, I had racked up nearly 7000 miles, 200 days and 230 night hours in a mix of west channel crossings, and extended cruisings around the Irish sea from Penzance to St Kilda. Being very committed to bothersome things like children have curtailed my sailing in Noughties to nothing more than about 300 miles and 14 days, 20 night hours.

I was not suggesting, though some may have thought I was, that I could have just wandered in to a YM exam and wandered out again grinning. My intention was to spend the next 2, maybe three years (now the kids are older) spending chunks of the school holidays rediscovering old haunts and exploring new ones. I also refresh my head on a YM theory course every few years. All of these adding to and refreshing my sailing fun and experience. I was then intending, maybe, to have a crack at the YM before age and befuddlement overtook me.

However, it is unlikely, following this 10 year rule, that I shall actually build up "enough qualifying time" per year, as I don't have the luxury of limitless time and money.

So my main point is that, though I have a great deal of experence, though not current, I do have it, and it ought to count.

And for those of you who love the flying/driving/diving analogy, since when could you walk away from the controls of a Cessna/ climb into the back of the van/remove your air tank at 20m depth for 10 minutes to make a mug of tea?

Cruising sailing is funtionally different from all those activities and should be considered as such.

 

[RobF]

If I may be so bold, if it's just the mileage that's holding you back... book yourself on a ARC place and you'll have the requisite mileage and off you go. Having been examined by a couple of YM Examiners (RYA Coastal and MCA Coastal) I suggest they will have no problems in ascertaining whether you're of an appropriate standard.

I trust you have no gripes with having to update your First Aid cert as they won't accept one that's 10 years old

 

[Seagreen]

I trust you have no gripes with having to update your First Aid cert as they won't accept one that's 10 years old

No gripes at all about training at all. I like refresher courses anyway. The ARC seems like a nice idea. Dunno whether I'd want to do it in Cleone. Maybe the Jester challenge? Now you've got me thinking..