Yachtmaster Standards

I am happy to say that the excellent Solent School of Yachting where I did my YM were more likely to go the other way, and book harder examiners !

Maybe that and the top ( presumably more expensive ) instructors used is why they no longer exist...

If one spends much time in the Solent, it becomes very obvious that there are 'yachtmasters', and the are Yachtmasters ! :rolleyes:
 
ukmctc said:
I just met a bloke who has passed his yacht masters theory and didn't put pen to paper.
He is now and has been for a few years a charter boat skipper!
He does delivery and olther jobs, its people like this who know people that make you ask if its worth the bother.
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Not possible, the exam for theory includes asessments for chartwork, weather and rule of the road. Written down, its not an interview!

He is being economical. :eek:
 
capnsensible said:
Not possible, the exam for theory includes asessments for chartwork, weather and rule of the road. Written down, its not an interview!

He is being economical. :eek:
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you don't have to pass YM theory to pass your YM, so it is sort of possible but not as described.

if you haven't expect the examiner to delve deeper on theory subjects though.

The first RYA exam I ever did was YM practical.
 
Elessar said:
you don't have to pass YM theory to pass your YM, so it is sort of possible but not as described.

if you haven't expect the examiner to delve deeper on theory subjects though.

The first RYA exam I ever did was YM practical.
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The poster says the person passed his theory without putting pen to paper. Wires crossed I reckon.
 
capnsensible said:
Not possible, the exam for theory includes asessments for chartwork, weather and rule of the road. Written down, its not an interview!

He is being economical. :eek:
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I don't think I put pen to paper in my YM................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................I wrote everything in pencil :D
 
Lady Campanula said:
As indicated before, I'm not a member of the elite cadre of YM Examiners, so I have no 'personal or prejudicial interest'. I am aware that all of 'em I've met are deeply experienced, personally competent, and quite individualistic. It is natural that emphasis will vary, and it is also reasonable that the RYA, as proxy for the MCA, will seek to 'standardise' as much as is reasonable. This is done through Examiners' Assessments and, I believe, Bulletins and Conferences. I'm aware that certain Examiners have their prejudices. Persuading them to alter their ways is an uphill struggle....

There are strengths and there are weaknesses in the approach of every assessor or examiner, in every walk of life. 'Standardisation' or 'validation' keeps a lot of training specialists in issues to wrangle about. Here are a couple of examples, from my own observations:

One bright and enthusiastic young professional, with whom I'd sailed several times, invested time and money in evening classes in London, then in a Day Skipper 1-week's course with a sea school on the Solent. Came the assessments, and the 'by numbers' examiner with a Joint Services' background and a Pirbright parade square attitude. My young friend was asked to plan end execute a night passage between two ports in the Solent. I've seen the plan - it was detailed, accurate, and fine. He was asked at one point in the night passage if he thought he could safely pass ahead of a ferry or merchant vessel, and he declined, passing instead safely behind. He was sneered at.... Some of the seamark lights he couldn't identify with certainty. He was 'failed'.

The debrief was, apparently, scathing. For a Day Skipper certificate of competence.....

Another friend, with whom I've sailed several thousand miles over several years, has a 37' catamaran which he had Coded and chartered out via a prominent Plymouth agent. He's competent, he's meticulous, and he's keen as mustard. During a YM exam, he was asked to short-tack his cat, at night and in the rain, up through the moorings in the Cattewater off Mountbatten. The wind was gusting hard, swirling down off and between the hangers, with violent changes of direction. He declined, and sailed the boat, with several tacks, up clear of the lines of unlit moored boats. One of his enduring problems is that he stammers - badly. He's not uncertain - he just has communication challenges, and those who sail with him learn to accommodate that. The examiner made much of this ''inadequacy' in the debrief, when he 'failed' him. I know my stuff ( on most days ) and he is one of the most reliable and aware skippers I've sailed with in recent years.

Yes, there may have been more to it on both occasions. No, I don't think the National Training Scheme was shown in the best light and, no, neither of them ever put their hands in their pockets for the RYA again. :(
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You sure it was a DS course, 'cos there is no 'examiner' for these, the candidate is assessed by the instructor & as such would not have embarrased him regarding any weaknesses. he would have been sensibly debriefed.
 
ukmctc said:
I just met a bloke who has passed his yacht masters theory and didn't put pen to paper.
He is now and has been for a few years a charter boat skipper!
He does delivery and olther jobs, its people like this who know people that make you ask if its worth the bother.
Click to expand...

What, just with a 'dubious' theory cert?

I doubt it.
 
Lady Campanula said:
Why was I mildly surprised to note there's a Wikipedia entry for this.....?

Of course, it must be right, accurate, and bang up to date.....

I'm not part of the structure, but I'm aware of the Yachtmaster Qualifications Panel. They set the standards. Having met a couple of 'em over the years, I'm aware these bods are no fools.

There is constant pressure, some of it commercial, to water down the standards. Who would benefit from that? Changes to requirements do occur - I'm glad I no longer need to do Morse Code or draw my own synoptic charts from a scribbled-down Shipping Forecast with CSRs - but surely the direction should be towards raising the bar....? And surely would-be holders of such certificates should have an interest in higher standards.

So, forumeers, what higher standards would you think appropriate to today's seas? A simulator checkride of ColRegs Practical Interpretation? An Emergency Repairs and Maintenance Module? Questions and Answers Test on Basic Law of the Sea?

What knowledge and demonstrable skills should you expect of a modern Yachtmaster Offshore? :)
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Well, you can change from a YM (Ocean or Offshore) to an MCA 200 ton ticket with an MCA oral exam which requires that you really know all your onions as they can pretty much test you on anything.
After that then you need to do various modules depending on which ticket you're going for and you have to have the required sea time and supplementary qualifications.
This is something I intend to do as an MCA ticket seems to hold a bit more water than the YM these days. I think the zero to hero's have given things a bad name. They know how to pass the exam but most of them still need to get a lot more experience.
I'm no Peter Blake or anything, I just earned my ticket by growing up sailing yachts and dinghies my whole life and then taking the exam after a prep week.
 
alant said:
You sure it was a DS course, 'cos there is no 'examiner' for these, the candidate is assessed by the instructor & as such would not have embarrased him regarding any weaknesses. he would have been sensibly debriefed.
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I know what he signed up and paid for. There were several others on the boat with him, and I suspect some of them were there for other assessments. I also suspect that the Examiner wasn't briefed adequately by the sea school on who was there for what. My friend certainly didn't know the 'ins and outs' of what was and wasn't expected on the differing courses, and did - or tried - what he was told.

While not a 'ZTH' type - just a non-assuming but quite enthusiastic fellow, he's no fool. And a 32 y.o. director of a technology company. He certainly could deliver most, if not all, of the specified course content from his time on the water with us and others. I asked if I could approach the school on his behalf - I wanted to know what had transpired - but he felt so humiliated that he declined. He hasn't sailed, to my knowledge, since.

I believed he was an ideal candidate for that course and I persuaded him of the benefits of getting some pro training earlier rather than later in his sailing. He had intended to buy a new boat later that year at SIBS, and had even shortlisted three.

Not a happy outcome..... :eek:
 
I think you already know what I think... No 10 year time limit.

However, I would like to see more emphasis on "disaster management". All the traumas I've had over the years (and there have'nt been many), had lead me to conclude that the RYA (my experiences are of the shore-based theory course) has led me to conclude that the ability to think out of the box and deal creatively with the situation when it all goes pear-shaped are a vital part of a "YM" skillset. To that end, a creative course module which throws a bucket of doodoo over the best laid plans of the student and see how they react would be instructive and interesting.

I've learned far, far more from my disasters that from my courses.

In a spirit of honesty, I'm admitting to:
Being resuced off Alderney by the RNLI in a Southerly Force 10. Very valuable lesson indeed.
Been on a boat whch needed towing off a submerged rock in very calm weather. (accidental grouding)
Ditto (same boat) needed rescuing from the mooring decisions of a harbourmaster by the RNLI.

Knowledge of how to scrap a plan and make a new one out of thin air is an essential skill.
 
confused......

I must say this is one of the most confusing threads I've read on this forum for a while,

IIRC

Some examiners aren't more expensive than others - they get a set fee for the number of applicants on the assesment.

Day skipper cert of comp courses don't have a seperate examiner - it is based on ongoing assesment by the instructor.

In order to become a YM examiner you must have an inkling about how to sail - enough I would guess to be able to distinguish a competent sailor.

Yachtmaster offshore is more concerned with being able to Skipper a boat - it prob assumes you can work out tide heights and a three point fix by now.


I can't see what the great concern over "standards" is - you can either skipper a boat or you can't.


.
 
Lady Campanula said:
Why was I mildly surprised to note there's a Wikipedia entry for this.....?

Of course, it must be right, accurate, and bang up to date.....

I'm not part of the structure, but I'm aware of the Yachtmaster Qualifications Panel. They set the standards. Having met a couple of 'em over the years, I'm aware these bods are no fools.

There is constant pressure, some of it commercial, to water down the standards. Who would benefit from that? Changes to requirements do occur - I'm glad I no longer need to do Morse Code or draw my own synoptic charts from a scribbled-down Shipping Forecast with CSRs - but surely the direction should be towards raising the bar....? And surely would-be holders of such certificates should have an interest in higher standards.

So, forumeers, what higher standards would you think appropriate to today's seas? A simulator checkride of ColRegs Practical Interpretation? An Emergency Repairs and Maintenance Module? Questions and Answers Test on Basic Law of the Sea?

What knowledge and demonstrable skills should you expect of a modern Yachtmaster Offshore? :)
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Hi, I agree with a lot of posts on this forum. I can speak with a little authority-albeit thirty years old- on instuctional tequniques as I spent 11 years as a Training Instructor in the Motor and Motorcycle Industries. Training can be carried out well or badly,sometimes by the same instructor on consecutive courses. Instuctors are all human and have good days and bad days like the rest of us have. The man who never made a mistake never made anything. My personal experience of RYA training started nine years ago when first mate and I did comp. crew in Menorca. I reconed a bit of sun would not harm my chances of getting her approval for sailing as a new hobby. It appears to have worked! Two years later I did D.S. practical in the Solent in Feburary. Learned a lot,especialy about keeping warm at sea! After another two years First Mate and I did some more with Trinity sailing on "Golden Vanity", a 100 year old gaff rigged Brixham Trawler. I did Coastal Skipper practical and First Mate D.S. practical. Getting back to our 33 foot fin keeler it felt like a toy. We are fortunate in having a mentor who is a Yachtmaster examiner and a skipper for the JSASTC and the Ocean Youth Trust's "John Laing". First thing he did when he sailed with us the first time was look at our log. "Wow" he exclaimed "dont you do a lot of sailing." (We try and sail most weekends,weather and maintenance permiting). He never talks down to us, sets us challenges we havent experienced before and then offers constructive coment on how we managed- it's not all good news! I am aware that life is an ongoing learning process,but almost at retireing age I feel I have done enough courses. Never done an RYA Theory course, only practical ones. But I have studied the textbooks, done the exercises set and completed them successfuly. This,and lots of miles covered and hours on the water seems to have done the trick. First mate and I sail most weekends and are confident in our ability to navigate our boat safely, supply any crew with sustenance and check and maintain the vessel and systems to a high level. The RYA has been part of this adventure,as have been the numbers of other yachtsmen I quite brazenly ask advice from-if you dont ask-you dont get! Having met many"New Age" Fastrack Yachtmasters I dont think First Mate and I let ourselves down by comparison. We are both aware of our limitations and the fault most often leveled at us is that we are too prudent in our decisions. In my view, rather that than going aground-or worse. I think the RYA do a good job in applying and policing the framework for its recognised training bearing in mind the fact that commercial enterprises run the training. It also moves to change when change is required, perhaps not as fast as some would like, but it gets there in the end. My experiences with all RYA training have been very positive.
 
Lady Campanula said:
What knowledge and demonstrable skills should you expect of a modern Yachtmaster Offshore? :)
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I would include:

More about anchoring, not just the "anchor under sail, check you do not drag... thing" but a lot more "what ifs". What if we drag ? What if someone drags upon us ? What if wind increases ? and increases even more ? What type of anchoring technique -one anchor, two, bahamian, Vees, ropes to shore, etc etc ?
That would keep the forum happy for weeks after the first failed candidate of the new program asks "what have I done wrong"


Basic engine maintenance: basic diagnostics, checking oil and oil change, fuel filter, priming, what if overheating, etc, say all the regular checks and maintenance tasks and easy faults to detect.

Basic electrics: just how to use a multimeter, if the tricolour does not work what would you check, or if the engine starter does not work, or the windlass...

Of course, the idea is not to be able to repair everything, but at least having a clue where the fault may be located, or how to identify it


More emphasis on shorthanded or reduced crew manoeuvering: (commercially endorsed) YM should be able to skip a yacht even with a crew of absolute beginners, or even passengers, apart from testing MOB skills with a crew of three four bold and knowledgeable friends, IMHO more consideration should be given to situations when one is the only capable person aboard, or only has one person to help
 
binch said:
When originally introduced as a Board of Trade qualification in the sixxties (the RYA had nothing to do with it at that time) I ran an evening class at Maidstone. The syllabus was extraordinary: knowledge of magnetism nearly up to compass adjuster level, and no practical exam whatsoever. I gave it up. It was a farce.
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I did the YM under the BoT regime. It included such delights as semaphore 4wpm send & receive and sight reduction by haversine formula. There was no sea time requirement and no practical though there was an oral with an old sea dog. One thing it did have that is missing today was a sight/colour blindness test using pairs of red, white or green lights.
 
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