Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Fot those wondering what the heck he's talking about.... this is a 700...
One wild ride /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
One wild ride /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yachtmaster question #6
- Thread starter Phoenix of Hamble
- Start date
mel80
Well-Known Member
That's a very good point. I'm reasonably confident that it would because a mizzen (I have a yawl) gives you a lot of control over the center of effort. But you're right, I don't know for a fact.
I do know that it is unlikely that the scenario described above would happer to me as the rudder is hung off the keel. But your point is a good one. A little less smugness on my part perhaps....
I do know that it is unlikely that the scenario described above would happer to me as the rudder is hung off the keel. But your point is a good one. A little less smugness on my part perhaps....
graham
Well-Known Member
I would guess that the vast majority of yachts dont have emergency steering contingencies. On my small boat a sweep oar works,on a larger boat it could be wise to predrill your spinnaker pole and a piece of strong plywood. Large washers and butterfly nuts could have it assembled without even needing tools.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
fair enough....
I agree though... i'd rather have a yawl and no rudder than a sloop and no rudder /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I agree though... i'd rather have a yawl and no rudder than a sloop and no rudder /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
Great fun!
I've found that double handed dinghies can be sailed rudderless to some extent (ok the GP14 was considerably easier than the Int 14 or the RS200), but singlehanded = nightmare - I had a 600 (fully battened main and no chines on the hull = very wet!)
However, with a dinghy the key is boat balance (you steer to a large degree by healing the boat) - I wouldn't even try to heel my 8 ton yacht to windward to make her bear off, and in a Force 7 if I tried to sheet the genoa and ease the main to make her bear away I suspect the heeling of the boat would counteract the sails and she would prob just go in a straight line!
Rudderless sailing - easy in (some) dinghies - very difficult in yachts unless perfect conditions!
Another thought - If you had a skeg hung rudder this would surely provide some directional stability and make it easier to sail (a bit like having your rudder lashed amidships - ableit lots smaller)
Jonny
I've found that double handed dinghies can be sailed rudderless to some extent (ok the GP14 was considerably easier than the Int 14 or the RS200), but singlehanded = nightmare - I had a 600 (fully battened main and no chines on the hull = very wet!)
However, with a dinghy the key is boat balance (you steer to a large degree by healing the boat) - I wouldn't even try to heel my 8 ton yacht to windward to make her bear off, and in a Force 7 if I tried to sheet the genoa and ease the main to make her bear away I suspect the heeling of the boat would counteract the sails and she would prob just go in a straight line!
Rudderless sailing - easy in (some) dinghies - very difficult in yachts unless perfect conditions!
Another thought - If you had a skeg hung rudder this would surely provide some directional stability and make it easier to sail (a bit like having your rudder lashed amidships - ableit lots smaller)
Jonny
fireball
Well-Known Member
Ah ... to keep steerage you'll need to stand a little further forward /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I was lucky - never broke my RS800 tiller extension ... had several goes at it though!! ... it was a carbon fibre one ... really bendy!
I was lucky - never broke my RS800 tiller extension ... had several goes at it though!! ... it was a carbon fibre one ... really bendy!
fireball
Well-Known Member
Well - as long as you can go in a straight line ......
Ok - Rudder alternatives ... bother the plank of wood strapped to a pole over the stern - they are notoriously crap ...
How about a pair of light drogues ... deployed from the mid cleats on either gunwhale. Dip them in to slow down that side and turn the boat, use the recovery line to lift them ... obviously would need some balancing from the sails too, but then so does normal sailing!
Ok - Rudder alternatives ... bother the plank of wood strapped to a pole over the stern - they are notoriously crap ...
How about a pair of light drogues ... deployed from the mid cleats on either gunwhale. Dip them in to slow down that side and turn the boat, use the recovery line to lift them ... obviously would need some balancing from the sails too, but then so does normal sailing!
mel80
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Rudderless sailing - easy in (some) dinghies - very difficult in yachts unless perfect conditions!
[/ QUOTE ]
I once sailed on a big ketch where in heavy seas it was standard NOT to use the helm as the (rimless) wheel could give a nasty kick. Again, that was a long keel with a fairly symmetric hull, so was pretty easy to steer with just the sails. But you're right; most yachts wouldn't manage well in big seas.
However, if I sailed a yacht with such an exposed rudder, I would be pretty paranoid about losing it, and even if I hadn't got an emergency rudder to hand, it's a scenario that I'd have run through in my mind a few times.
Rudderless sailing - easy in (some) dinghies - very difficult in yachts unless perfect conditions!
[/ QUOTE ]
I once sailed on a big ketch where in heavy seas it was standard NOT to use the helm as the (rimless) wheel could give a nasty kick. Again, that was a long keel with a fairly symmetric hull, so was pretty easy to steer with just the sails. But you're right; most yachts wouldn't manage well in big seas.
However, if I sailed a yacht with such an exposed rudder, I would be pretty paranoid about losing it, and even if I hadn't got an emergency rudder to hand, it's a scenario that I'd have run through in my mind a few times.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
How about strapping the spinnaker pole (if you have one) transversely across the pushpit, with a snatch block on each end, and using the sheets (run through the snatch blocks) to control a drogue on a line streamed from a bridle attached to the aft cleats or bollards?
Danny Jo
Well-Known Member
Brilliant, except that the pushpit fastenings might not be up to the task.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
True..... one could then lash the pole at deck / bulwark / toerail level to the stern cleats perhaps?
Or add guys from the end of the pole running forward (to eg the midships spring cleats) to help take the loads?
Or add guys from the end of the pole running forward (to eg the midships spring cleats) to help take the loads?
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Back to my point..... taking a look around my marina.... most boats nowadays don't have spinnaker poles......
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Why dont they have spinnaker poles?
They dont have to be exclusively used for spinnakers - they are also very useful for poling out a jib or genoa to windward when running goose-winged.
They dont have to be exclusively used for spinnakers - they are also very useful for poling out a jib or genoa to windward when running goose-winged.
doris
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
I am staggered that so many peeps feel that they could steer with no rudder. Long keelers and even big skegs are one thing but no rudder is a huge difference from simply have the rudder hanging down but not being twiddled. I am impressed with their optimism. I very much doubt that we would have control at all, alongwith any other balanced spade ruddered boat. Heaving to rudderless is much the same IMHO.
This could be a nice opportunity for Mr Jermain to persuade one of the Hamble's finest to remove a rudder, get a tow out to the solent and for a few forumites to volunter to have a try. I certainly would like to try, in fact I may have a go at Dehler to step up to the plate! How about it James.
I am surprised about the lack of spinnaker poles but if peeps have been a counting so be it but surely everyone must have 50+m of chain and warp for their primary anchor. Out it goes and what is all this Pan Pan stuff. In a F7, lee shore and no steerage, tosh, thats a Mayday in my book. But then I always was a bit of a girls blouse!
I am staggered that so many peeps feel that they could steer with no rudder. Long keelers and even big skegs are one thing but no rudder is a huge difference from simply have the rudder hanging down but not being twiddled. I am impressed with their optimism. I very much doubt that we would have control at all, alongwith any other balanced spade ruddered boat. Heaving to rudderless is much the same IMHO.
This could be a nice opportunity for Mr Jermain to persuade one of the Hamble's finest to remove a rudder, get a tow out to the solent and for a few forumites to volunter to have a try. I certainly would like to try, in fact I may have a go at Dehler to step up to the plate! How about it James.
I am surprised about the lack of spinnaker poles but if peeps have been a counting so be it but surely everyone must have 50+m of chain and warp for their primary anchor. Out it goes and what is all this Pan Pan stuff. In a F7, lee shore and no steerage, tosh, thats a Mayday in my book. But then I always was a bit of a girls blouse!
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
Of course a sensible boat (like a Twister) with a keel hung rudder is most unlikely to find itself in such a embarrassing position, but if it did I'm sure the two 7 feet dinghy oars strapped to the coachroof hand rails could be put to good use as steering aids.
Of course a sensible boat (like a Twister) with a keel hung rudder is most unlikely to find itself in such a embarrassing position, but if it did I'm sure the two 7 feet dinghy oars strapped to the coachroof hand rails could be put to good use as steering aids.
Silverado
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
A Pan Pan call and a Safety message re the floating log are the first actions to take. Drop the sails and then it would probably be worth inflating the dinghy, lashing it alongside and steer with your outboard.
What you don't have a dinghy and outboard? Who goes cruising without them, in fact it is more likely that you would have an inflatable than a spinnaker pole.
When your tow arrives you would at least have kept the situation under control.
A Pan Pan call and a Safety message re the floating log are the first actions to take. Drop the sails and then it would probably be worth inflating the dinghy, lashing it alongside and steer with your outboard.
What you don't have a dinghy and outboard? Who goes cruising without them, in fact it is more likely that you would have an inflatable than a spinnaker pole.
When your tow arrives you would at least have kept the situation under control.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
If you think i'd launch an inflatable, and attach the engine in a F7 with a big sea running, you can think again!!!!!
IMHO that'd more than likely add a MOB to the situation....
If you think i'd launch an inflatable, and attach the engine in a F7 with a big sea running, you can think again!!!!!
IMHO that'd more than likely add a MOB to the situation....
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
Whilst contemplating lack of steerage I had a fleeting thought of using the outboard as a stern thruster ... then tried to imagine me doing that in a big sea, whilst it's getting dark and blowing a hooly .... bugger that! ... I'd rather go up the mast!!
Whilst contemplating lack of steerage I had a fleeting thought of using the outboard as a stern thruster ... then tried to imagine me doing that in a big sea, whilst it's getting dark and blowing a hooly .... bugger that! ... I'd rather go up the mast!!
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
I think there is a fair illustration here of people's reluctance to call "mayday".
To my mind the key facts are:
1/ no steerage and therefore no ability to get out of the way of, for example, fishing boats
2/ no nuc lights (what yacht has those?) so fishing boats wouldnt know you couldnt get out of the way.
3/ approaching dark
4/ force 7 onto a lee shore - 3 or 4 kn drift rate?
5/ in most boats no ability to heave to because no rudder. no ability to conrtol the attitude of the boat in relation to the wind and weather
OK you can argue about what "imminent" means but I would bet £1 to a pinch of pig sh*t that every lifeboat organisation would want you to call for help now rather than wait until the situation becomes dire.
I think there is a fair illustration here of people's reluctance to call "mayday".
To my mind the key facts are:
1/ no steerage and therefore no ability to get out of the way of, for example, fishing boats
2/ no nuc lights (what yacht has those?) so fishing boats wouldnt know you couldnt get out of the way.
3/ approaching dark
4/ force 7 onto a lee shore - 3 or 4 kn drift rate?
5/ in most boats no ability to heave to because no rudder. no ability to conrtol the attitude of the boat in relation to the wind and weather
OK you can argue about what "imminent" means but I would bet £1 to a pinch of pig sh*t that every lifeboat organisation would want you to call for help now rather than wait until the situation becomes dire.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Re: Rudderless steering
If the vessel had an outboard engine for propulsion, located in a well in the cockpit, eg like the Hunters, then it would (I hope) be tilted up when the log took out the rudder.
Has anybody ever tried steering a yacht under sail with just an outboard engine? I dont think the leg on its own would function very well as a rudder, but with thrust applied it could be quite effective.
If the vessel had an outboard engine for propulsion, located in a well in the cockpit, eg like the Hunters, then it would (I hope) be tilted up when the log took out the rudder.
Has anybody ever tried steering a yacht under sail with just an outboard engine? I dont think the leg on its own would function very well as a rudder, but with thrust applied it could be quite effective.
