Yacht survey - technical + legal question

[QuietFlight]

I have been helping a friend through the process of a yacht purchase. Having found what was thought to be the right boat, deposit was paid and lift out and survey sorted. The boat was advertised and priced at the very top end of that models price guide and claimed to be a very well sorted and maintained boat.
Horror of horror's when we arrive for the survey to discover about 2 inches missing off the bottom of the rudder, with further damage to the laminate, looks like a serious grounding at best. We then spot that the keel is about 1.5 inches out of alignment to the fixing point at the base of the hull. its as if it had not been put on straight.
We suspect that this boat has had some serious damage in the past and a poor repair. Non of this was mentioned by the broker. He actually claimed that the keel was "typical of a Westerly Seahawk at that time". I can not believe that any boat could leave any manufacturer with the keel that far out and not straight and in line with the boat.
The question is now having spent close on £700 for a lift and survey for a boat that is clearly a crock what can we do about getting any of the money back? The deposit is being repaid, but what a waste of time and money to survey a boat that had serious faults that someone should have known about. The broker says he did not know that state of the boat under the water. Is that a get out for him? It seems to me that someone has to take responsibility for the way the boat is described. They must have realised that at some point it was going to be noticed, or did they think someone would be stupid enough to buy a boat with those kind of problems.
Any thoughts or advice much appreciated. Its sad that my friend is having to deal with this kind of thing as their first introduction to the boating world. I am sure that this forum has the answers, so much knowledge and experience amongst the forumites.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Seven Spades]

Are you a member of the RYA, if so why don't you ask their legal department?

 

[gardenshed]

The frustration that you have about inaccurate description of the boat from either the broker or the seller is why you have to independently check their claims. The decision to use a surveyor and to lift the boat for inspection is yours and therefore you have to incur the costs.

Rather than look at it as £700 wasted, look at this episode as saving you from the horrendous expense on buying a boat that is a mess.

I suspect that you will have no recourse on your expenses. If the RYA advise to the contrary, please let us know.

 

[dom]

I would have thought that this is classic Small Claims Court territory. Also I can imagine it will be lousy PR for the broker if the story gets out.

I would contact broker and ask for a refund on the basis of you having been misled by grossly inaccurate, perhaps negligently produced information. He may well pay you. If they don't agree report them to whatever trade body he is a member of if any. Report him to RYA. Simultaneously file a Small Claims Court action.

 

[Mirelle]

Why on earth do you expect the seller's broker to be aware of, let alone responsible for, the condition of the boat?

Do you understand the words "at his own cost" in the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the YBDSA standard sale form, which your friend presumably signed, and which reads:

"The Purchaser may at a venue to be agreed and at his own cost haul or place ashoreor afloat and/or open up the vessel and its machinery for the purpose of inspection and/or survey..."?

You've got the deposit back; end of story.

Grow up, chum.

 

[Aja]

Not a legal answer, but the Broker is working on behalf of the vendor, and takes what the vendor tells him in good faith.

If you look at most adverts as on the ybw.com site you will notice a disclaimer at the foot of the advert:

"Disclaimer
The Company offers the details of this vessel in good faith but cannot guarantee or warrant the accuracy of this information nor warrant the condition of the vessel. A buyer should instruct his agents, or his surveyors, to investigate such details as the buyer desires validated. This vessel is offered subject to prior sale, price change, or withdrawal without notice. "

That's why a good surveyor is a necessity in boat purchase.

In my opinion.

Donald

 

[bedouin]

There is no obligation on the seller - or the broker acting as the seller's agent - to point out problems with the boat, but he must not knowingly make false statements. I think it is very unlikely that the broker made any statements that you can prove to be deliberately misleading so you should probably chalk this one up to experience and move on.

 

[dom]

I think the question here is whether the broker knew at the time that the facts describing the boat were false. If he did but still allowed them in the vessel's marketing documents anyway I don't think it is so clear.

 

[blackadder]

Hi,
My experience with some brokers has been poor - they have so little information on some boats it seems that they just don't care. Their disclaimers have all the get out clauses though so I imagine the £700 is gone unless the broker is going to give you something as a good will gesture.

Can you tell me the name of the boat please?
I am looking at Seahawks at present - and would like to know which one to avoid!
Thanks,
Chris

 

[jonic]

A broker is legally obliged to point out any faults that he has been made aware of. I suspect in this case if the boat was not out of the water, he never knew. The whole idea of YOUR survey is that it is for YOUR benefit. You now have, and this is backed up by a legal document, the opportunity to walk away and not be left with the problems and your deposit returned. Or to be able to negotiate a large discount and/or repairs paid for by the seller to your surveyors satisfaction.

Very few brokers (if any) would risk knowing of that damage and not make it known to a purchaser. There is simply no point, considering the hassle and claims that would result from it.

You really should see this as the reason why a good survey is essential and money well spent.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

An estate agent is not allowed to say that a house is "claimed to be a very well sorted and maintained." when it is not.

But, for the sake of £700 I think it will be an fruitless struggle to get the money back, although a sharp letter to any trade bodies the broker belongs to, cannot go amiss.

 

[Mirelle]

That is incredibly unlikely.

Why would any sane broker make a representation about something that he knew would be disproved the moment the boat was out of the water?

 

[Sailfree]

Firstly ther Rya sale contract says lift out and survey at your own cost.

Did you sign any documents look closely at their wording.

However dispite all the advice to the contary if you think the seller misrepresented the boat to both you and the broker I think it likely that a small claim court would look favourably on any claim.

Think carefully about what words were used by the broker or the seller or implied by the broker to be statements f fact from the seller. Obviously witnesses to any representations or anything in writing would might strengthen your case.

Unless you can demonstrate that on the balance of probability 1) the seller misrepresented the boat and 2) the seller must have been aware of these defects you won't have a case.

If I was the seller I would make the defence that had I been aware of such obvious defects I would not have agreed to the lift out and survey!

 

[dom]

This can easily happen. First of all the gist of the post seems to be that the boat was in rubbish condition. This may well have been visible to the broker. If it was and he allowed misleading information to be distributed then he has some reponsibility.

If however the boat was fine above the waterline and inside and all of the problems below then a claim would have no chance of success.

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
That is incredibly unlikely.

Why would any sane broker make a representation about something that he knew would be disproved the moment the boat was out of the water?

[/ QUOTE ]

He wouldn't, he has nothing to gain and everything to lose.
As it stands now, he's wasted time and money marketing the boat, has earnt Zero and now has a duff boat on his books.

If he knew of damage like that, not mentioning it would be totally pointless.

 

[michael_w]

Be pleased that your chum is getting his deposit money back. This is why you have surveys done.

Incidentally, I'd have thought such extensive damage would be evident from a close inspection of the internal structure. Reglassed floors, bulkheads etc.

A good torch, a make-up mirror and a soft nosed hammer are vital tools for close inspection. A Leatherman comes in handy too. Get the broker/owner off the boat whilst you are carrying out your inspection. Sometimes they don't like you unscrewing sole boards, covers etc.

 

[Aja]

Not a legal answer, but the Broker is working on behalf of the vendor, and takes what the vendor tells him in good faith.

If you look at most adverts as on the ybw.com site you will notice a disclaimer at the foot of the advert:
[ QUOTE ]

"Disclaimer
The Company offers the details of this vessel in good faith but cannot guarantee or warrant the accuracy of this information nor warrant the condition of the vessel. A buyer should instruct his agents, or his surveyors, to investigate such details as the buyer desires validated. This vessel is offered subject to prior sale, price change, or withdrawal without notice. "

That's why a good surveyor is a necessity in boat purchase.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically what I said in my reply to the original poster /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Donald

 

[sarabande]

Do you know if a previous survey has been made ? If so, was the vendor or the broker aware of the results ? This may have a bearing on the claim.

 

[jonic]

Sarabande

No broker I know of would even contemplate non-disclosure of something as obvious of that. But then again I only know YBDSA brokers.

So another angle on this, is this broker a one off, and not affiliated to an association?

 

[jonic]

Actually regarding my last post, even if he is a cow-boy I can't see why anyone would do it.