burgundyben
Well-known member
Does anyone here have experience of a Wright and Beyer Kitchen Rudder?
If it helps it's from 1976 on a 31ft boat.
If it helps it's from 1976 on a 31ft boat.
Wright & Beyer Kitchen Rudder
- Thread starter burgundyben
- Start date
sarabande
Well-known member
Yepp, had 'em on the Dartmouth practice boats in early 70s. Dunno about the Wright and Beyer bit though. Hard work getting neutral (for'd and aft thrust) balanced, Every boat had a different balance point.
Poignard
Well-known member
I remember the 32-foot cutters on my first ship, a Colony class cruiser, having Kitchen gear. I think Victorious had them but I can't be sure. I had a go at operating them but they took some getting used to. The cutters had a tiller and a small bronze handwheel mounted underneath that was geared to the Kitchen deflectors. There was also a version for wheel-steered craft and that had a small wheel coaxial with the steering wheel that operated the deflectors. The engine did not to have a reversing gearbox.
There's quite a bit of information on the internet about the Kitchen gear. Apparently Kitchen was the inventor and Wright & Beyer, Birkenhead, was the company that manufactured it
There's quite a bit of information on the internet about the Kitchen gear. Apparently Kitchen was the inventor and Wright & Beyer, Birkenhead, was the company that manufactured it
Dipper
Well-known member
I hope I'm not the only person who hasn't the foggiest idea what you chaps are talking about. I'm going to have to search the internet methinks.
Edit - Five minutes later and I'm starting to understand!
Edit - Five minutes later and I'm starting to understand!
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Poignard
Well-known member
I think you'll find a better description there than I could give!
burgundyben
Well-known member
Aha! right then!I have just bought a Fairey Bulldog, its a 31ft displacement motorboat, much like a Mitchell 31, very few of them.
My Bulldog has a kitchen gear fitted, its the same system that was fitted to the Watercraft and Fairey build MSB's that the Navy used in the 70's.
I have 2 wheels, co-axial, the aft one has a handle on it, winding it several turns, opens and closes the kitchen gear, there is an indicator on the dash that shows ahead, neutral, reverse, all of which of course when the Borg Warner gearbox on the back of the engine is in fwd gear. All fully understood, makes sense, and seems to respond as I expect it would.
The other wheel, i have a question about, an 8 spoke bronze affair, one spoke has a ring/ridge on which suggests that is straight ahead, when chugging along and wish to steer port or stbd, I would expect the wheel to turn at least maybe 2 turns lock to lock, but probably not more than 5 turns lock to lock. However, this wheel, seems to be spring loaded in the ahead position and self centres, the force to overcome this feels counter intuitive to me, its quite an effort and I don't want to be damaging it further if something is wrong. Half a turn is quite a lot of effort, it does seem to turn the boat well, but perhaps not as much as I would expect. Notable turns better when engine is in gear, which I suppose makes sense given the rudder gear.
So, after all that waffle if you haven't nodded off, does anyone recognise that as a feature of the Kitchen gear? Or do I need to lift the lazarette floor and investigate? Only just bought the boat, so still learning.
(By way of reference, I'd driven a lot and wide variety of boats over 40 years, from sailing dinghies to offshore racers, from ribs to 80ft gin palaces)
My Bulldog has a kitchen gear fitted, its the same system that was fitted to the Watercraft and Fairey build MSB's that the Navy used in the 70's.
I have 2 wheels, co-axial, the aft one has a handle on it, winding it several turns, opens and closes the kitchen gear, there is an indicator on the dash that shows ahead, neutral, reverse, all of which of course when the Borg Warner gearbox on the back of the engine is in fwd gear. All fully understood, makes sense, and seems to respond as I expect it would.
The other wheel, i have a question about, an 8 spoke bronze affair, one spoke has a ring/ridge on which suggests that is straight ahead, when chugging along and wish to steer port or stbd, I would expect the wheel to turn at least maybe 2 turns lock to lock, but probably not more than 5 turns lock to lock. However, this wheel, seems to be spring loaded in the ahead position and self centres, the force to overcome this feels counter intuitive to me, its quite an effort and I don't want to be damaging it further if something is wrong. Half a turn is quite a lot of effort, it does seem to turn the boat well, but perhaps not as much as I would expect. Notable turns better when engine is in gear, which I suppose makes sense given the rudder gear.
So, after all that waffle if you haven't nodded off, does anyone recognise that as a feature of the Kitchen gear? Or do I need to lift the lazarette floor and investigate? Only just bought the boat, so still learning.
(By way of reference, I'd driven a lot and wide variety of boats over 40 years, from sailing dinghies to offshore racers, from ribs to 80ft gin palaces)
Kukri
Well-known member
Oh yes. Not at first hand, but in the summer of 1973 I managed to put Mytica, all eighteen feet of her, aground whilst trying to navigate Faversham Creek only to be passed by the tanker ‘B.P. Haulier’ going up the creek stern first
Kitchen rudder.
Kitchen rudder.
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burgundyben
Well-known member
I used the new boat with its fancy rudder again both Saturday and Sunday.
I am starting to master manoeuvring with it, its very different to anything else!
I still question whether the steering wheel is quite right, seems really odd to be working against a spring?
I am starting to master manoeuvring with it, its very different to anything else!
I still question whether the steering wheel is quite right, seems really odd to be working against a spring?
capnsensible
Well-known member
I got some way old memories of using a cutter fitted with the gear at Jupiter Point. That was the RN sailing centre not far from Torpoint. I was an Instructor at HMS Fisgard at the time and used to take the trainees out for harbour trips under the guise of adventure training.
Great fun for me learning how to use it!
Poignard
Well-known member
Was I right to say the engine didn't need to have a reversing gearbox?
capnsensible
Well-known member
Yes, the 'buckets' directed the flow of water for ahead and astern. Could get quite energetic on the rotation wheel in more interesting mooring situations.
Poignard
Well-known member
Yes, the 'buckets' directed the flow of water for ahead and astern. Could get quite energetic on the rotation wheel in more interesting mooring situations.
Yes, very low geared control. To see them coming alongside the Med ladder in difficult conditions was entertaining (although not for the coxswain)
Bilgediver
Well-known member
Poignard
Well-known member
I'm green with envy. I wonder if I could get one for my Twister? :ambivalence:
burgundyben
Well-known member
Yes, lots of winding!
Lovely that vid, watched it many times.
So far I have only driven the boat 3 times, from launch at Swanwick, to Yarmouth, then a couple of day trips, Keyhaven and Lymington. I can make the boat manouvre like that, but need more practice.
Just struck me watching that (for the 20th time! I'm a slow learner), I'm not using mine right! What I should be doing, is setting the rudder in neutral, then starting engine, putting the engine in ahead, boat won't move, then I can control ahead/astern with much less winding from the neutral position, and steer with the fwd wheel.
ETA - I wanted one of these boats, I only know of 4 of them, and this one was for sale, it has its issues, but it was cheap. Its the only one with Kitchen gear So I bought it. I like having the Kitchen Rudder, I like its quirky big chunky bronze engineering, but its loads of drag. When I come to do a major refit, I can't help but think I would be better off with a girt big spade rudder and a bow and stern thruster. Technology has moved on and Kitchen Rudders aren't hugely popular which tells a story!
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sarabande
Well-known member
BB, do your rudder shells articulate like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-tpFo9C4zE
Does the 'spring' feeling take place only when the prop is turning, in which case it might be a function of the hydrodynamics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-tpFo9C4zE
Does the 'spring' feeling take place only when the prop is turning, in which case it might be a function of the hydrodynamics.
burgundyben
Well-known member
Yes, mine is an identical rudder to that video.
Good point, but no, even ashore the 'spring self centering' is evident.
geoffatstanpit
Member
I remember a dive boat out of Shoreham had that system. One of the cups fell off when approaching the Quay and it carried away the entire News of the World angling competition. Must have been in the sixties I think.
maxi77
Active member
Many of the RN 32 ft motor cutters back in the 60s were fitted with Kitchen gear and we all had to qualify handling them. Took a bit of getting used to but it was very effective. In the fleet they were mainly used to support diving, including dockyard hard hat divers.
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Seajet
...
I'd never heard of this system, so thankyou.
It's very much like the thrust reverser ' clamshells or buckets ' used by jet fighters like the Viggen and Tornado, though they of course only work in reverse not thrust vectoring.
The drag of the Kitchen system must have been immense, though in the right applications I can see it being useful.
It's very much like the thrust reverser ' clamshells or buckets ' used by jet fighters like the Viggen and Tornado, though they of course only work in reverse not thrust vectoring.
The drag of the Kitchen system must have been immense, though in the right applications I can see it being useful.
