JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Intelligent bullies know not to bully when they are being watched.
Wow! Now your crew are actually employees - or so says a lawyer!
- Thread starter FullCircle
- Start date
Intelligent bullies know not to bully when they are being watched.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Tensions among a crew can build up over an extended period and things that may be ignored over a few days of practice can build up into major annoyances. I once went to a lecture by a guy who had done a circumnavigation with 2 friends. He said that one guy's habit of tapping away on a digital device while writing his diary eventually drove the other two up the wall. The crew fell out and went their separate ways on the last leg through the med.
To get on together on a long passage requires everyone to work at it and it only takes one to sour the atmosphere. I've seen it a couple of times on ocean crossings - one a skipper who made it very clear to the crew they were only there on sufferance ('Don't lounge around the saloon when you're off watch, go to your cabin'), another a crew member when I was skipper who lifted the lid of a pan one of the others was cooking and said 'When are you going to cook something I can eat?'
One lady told me of her experiences on the Malcolm Miller where one OOW had a downer on her and ordered her up onto the deckhouse roof in a gale when it was clearly unsafe. The Master went ape when he found out. Imagine how that would play out if it had been the skipper with no one to countermand the order.
Now it may be that the lady in question is being over-sensitive and imagining slights against her but it may also have been a real campaign against her by one or more of her shipmates with a weak or vindictive skipper. As to going to law, we all use the skills we have to solve problems in our lives and she knows the law. Most people in those circumstances would either give up or try to get the press to take up their case.
To get on together on a long passage requires everyone to work at it and it only takes one to sour the atmosphere. I've seen it a couple of times on ocean crossings - one a skipper who made it very clear to the crew they were only there on sufferance ('Don't lounge around the saloon when you're off watch, go to your cabin'), another a crew member when I was skipper who lifted the lid of a pan one of the others was cooking and said 'When are you going to cook something I can eat?'
One lady told me of her experiences on the Malcolm Miller where one OOW had a downer on her and ordered her up onto the deckhouse roof in a gale when it was clearly unsafe. The Master went ape when he found out. Imagine how that would play out if it had been the skipper with no one to countermand the order.
Now it may be that the lady in question is being over-sensitive and imagining slights against her but it may also have been a real campaign against her by one or more of her shipmates with a weak or vindictive skipper. As to going to law, we all use the skills we have to solve problems in our lives and she knows the law. Most people in those circumstances would either give up or try to get the press to take up their case.
dom
Well-Known Member
No arguing with that, but is it not fallacious to argue that "not wanting friction" somehow implies that friction didn't exist, and that if it did the blame must lie with the woman in question?
And thinking of it, why did the crew fail to follow standard procedure and 'swim the suspected witch' whilst she was attached to the bosun's chair? If she drowned a respectable Christian burial would be given, and if she survived she should have been promptly executed as a 'proven' witch?
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alant
Well-Known Member
They come from almost every walk of life, both professionally, nationally, racially & in my experience, are very much 'go for it' enthusiast's!
IMO, they have little time to 'brood', because they have to participate in running the boat (+ sleeping).
Yes, it can by mentally stressful & at times, many will ask 'why the F, am I doing this'.
If you want it easy, join a cruise ship.
Their earlier 'competition', the BT Challenge Business, sold their places, by 'taunting' applicants - "are you tough enough". Also stating that their 'race', was the toughest 'around the World race', whilst their RKJ competition, were the Worlds Longest Canal Race (because they went via panama).
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alant
Well-Known Member
Maybe, but she is a woman who has been successful in a 'mans' world professionally, so cannot believe she would put up with that.
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Lurking here and was thinking to myself that an Employment Tribunal is not a nice place to be and as a fellow employer, I am sympathetic to RKJ who after all, was not there (although is responsible for the actions of his staff, etc).
However, the law is there to help find the facts and get to a fair verdict. As a lawyer the lady will clearly know the process and both financial and emotional costs of such a trial. If she feels it necessary to go through it, then she must feel she has a claim worth pursuing. There is a strict procedure that both parties will have needed to be followed before she was allowed to lodge a claim. RKJ's team clearly didn't think her claim merited an informal or confidential solution.
Only when all the facts are out can anybody judge. I have no idea about the claim or its merits and its not for me to judge.
For once, I feel that a court of law is exactly the right place for this dispute to be settled. Public, fair and once decided and it will put a legal framework around the status of paying clients on a charter boat.
However, the law is there to help find the facts and get to a fair verdict. As a lawyer the lady will clearly know the process and both financial and emotional costs of such a trial. If she feels it necessary to go through it, then she must feel she has a claim worth pursuing. There is a strict procedure that both parties will have needed to be followed before she was allowed to lodge a claim. RKJ's team clearly didn't think her claim merited an informal or confidential solution.
Only when all the facts are out can anybody judge. I have no idea about the claim or its merits and its not for me to judge.
For once, I feel that a court of law is exactly the right place for this dispute to be settled. Public, fair and once decided and it will put a legal framework around the status of paying clients on a charter boat.
dom
Well-Known Member
You 'may' be right. But it seems to me that your opinion is based solely on conjecture and a general faith in the Clipper.
On the other side we have a respectable lady who alleges serious abuse.
It might well be that your general faith in Clipper is warranted, but that something serious has gone wrong here. And if it has, surely justice should be done, no?
CreakyDecks
Well-Known Member
Depending on the outcome she will -
possibly be the last female participant
probably be the last lawyer participant
definitely be the last female lawyer participant.
possibly be the last female participant
probably be the last lawyer participant
definitely be the last female lawyer participant.
SLC
Well-Known Member
Sandy Bottom
Well-Known Member
I bet they sailed on a Friday too.
Seajet
...
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
She isn't, it would seem.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstood my question.
In asking about the history of participants I was referring to those who had completed the voyage, did they harbour resentment, is it common to feel aggrieved about their place and treatment in the crew?
Seajet
...
Lakesailor,
the impression I've always got is that it's a life changing experience for people taking part; but a world cruise it ain't !
There have been reports of crews under training being a bit boisterous and full of themselves at base - as one might expect from people with this money and time to blow and willing for what amounts to an ' extreme sport ', but I think it a fair bet they've learned humility in a big way by the time they return.
Unless they bottle out then fancy the whole experience they had for free or better still with compensation for having been taken sailing...
the impression I've always got is that it's a life changing experience for people taking part; but a world cruise it ain't !
There have been reports of crews under training being a bit boisterous and full of themselves at base - as one might expect from people with this money and time to blow and willing for what amounts to an ' extreme sport ', but I think it a fair bet they've learned humility in a big way by the time they return.
Unless they bottle out then fancy the whole experience they had for free or better still with compensation for having been taken sailing...
zzyyxx
Well-Known Member
This isn't the first story of bullying on the clipper races: http://www.bulliedonboard.com/
afs67
New Member
IIRC I read an article in a newspaper written by a journalist sailing in the 1996 Clipper race. It was made clear that the writer was not happy about the demeanour of the skipper and the way that crew were treated and it was coupled with a complaint that although the race was routed via many interesting ports of call insufficient time was allocated to stopovers to explore them. The two points together had led the writer to jump ship to spend a bit more time in (I think) Galapagos and to subsequently pen the article. The reason I recall this is that although the skipper was not named it was fairly easy, with a bit of background knowledge, to identify him and I was a bit surprised as I knew him, had sailed with him, and it seemed to be very much out of character. One couldn't help but feel that there were some background niggles which cumulatively became an issue, and perhaps a bit of artistic license to give the basis of an article. However as far as I know, although this complaint was about as public as it could be, it went no further.
There were also crew problems on the 2000 Challenge race where a skipper was changed in Boston after the first leg and another went in New Zealand after crew unrest but in both cases the underlying complaint (not supported by Sir Chay) related to the competence /racing ability of the skippers. I think it reflected that the crews had paid large amounts of money to participate and there were a number of very competitve individuals amongst the crews who demanded better (in their view).
As a personal view it is now at the point where skippers not only have to have sailing ability and man/crew management skills, but the ability to manage expectations is also essential. Many skippers have not necessarily come through a commercial background and many of the nuances/concepts of harassment, bullying, abuse, health and safety, and the miriad of other regulations are not those with which a skipper might be familiar.
Seajet
...
I suggest RKJ makes ' Two Years Before The mast ' by RH Dana essential reading for wannabe's, with an exam at the end to show they realise they're actually in luxury compared to those who have gone before !
Bru
Well-Known Member
Without going into too many details, one of the major factors in my dropping out of being involved in running a voluntarily run boat (albeit on the canals) was the incipient and ongoing friction between people who wanted to do it right (including me) and the people who were just along for a jolly
I suspect that some of the crew members on the Clipper boats are committed racing types with high energy and high expectations and certainly from the blog link (and possibly the same for the lady lawyer) others are less motivated and less competitive.
Competitive types tend to be less than supportive of people who don't fit their expectations
And sadly bullying doesn't come to an end when we leave school, some people remain bullies (often in very subtle ways) all their days
I suspect that some of the crew members on the Clipper boats are committed racing types with high energy and high expectations and certainly from the blog link (and possibly the same for the lady lawyer) others are less motivated and less competitive.
Competitive types tend to be less than supportive of people who don't fit their expectations
And sadly bullying doesn't come to an end when we leave school, some people remain bullies (often in very subtle ways) all their days
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
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zzyyxx
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is something of a challenge but there's a sad story underneath the mess. Interestingly, it was Clipper that threw her out in the end and not her that quit.
...and yes she does come across as a bit of a loon, but Clipper clearly picked that up early on and yet stuck with her.