Would you use a lifeline and harness on a motorboat?

[Elessar]

I meant when the boat is on manovers.

I understood that.

I have a problem if you are suggesting that people on my boat should wear them on somebody else’s say so.

 

[Elessar]

Another question is a mob a mayday situation.

100% yes. Cancel when the emergency is over.

Calling only when the emergency escalates wastes time.

If they fell in and can climb out it will be over quickly.

If they are incapacitated you will likely need help no matter how you have practiced getting people back on board in still water.

Remember Rob James? Naomi James’ husband?

More experienced sailor than probably everyone here.

Fell through the trampoline on a cat as he was stowing sails to enter salcombe.

They found his body two weeks before Naomi had their first child.

Don’t fall in is the motto. Lifejackets can give a false sense of security.

The examiner who did my yachtmaster exam refused to wear the lifejacket I handed him.

He said “they just make it easier to find the body”. Not sure I agree but it makes you think. He had been rescued mid Atlantic a week after abandoning into a tender so was quite experienced.

 

[Fire99]

It’s a bit like when seat belts became compulsory....and we all thought we would die in burning or drowning vehicles....or the introduction of motorcycle helmets....although I’m struggling to remember why we thought that was a bad idea

Yes and no. Not every invention / safety idea ends up being necessary in all situations (and some just turn out to be rubbish). Seatbelts yep. Even lifejackets need discernment.. How many people wear a self inflating life jacket when dinghy racing?? buoyancy aid, yes. Life jacket, no, or with every significant wave I'd be puffed up like a balloon!

I don't know one way or the other regarding lifelines but it is without a doubt that even in professional circles on sailing boats, they remain contentious.

 

[Elessar]

It’s a bit like when seat belts became compulsory....and we all thought we would die in burning or drowning vehicles....or the introduction of motorcycle helmets....although I’m struggling to remember why we thought that was a bad idea

That legislation was supported by factual evidence. Proven after the fact to be right.

With life jackets what is the problem compulsion would be trying to fix? Provide evidence not anecdotes.

 

[Fire99]

Do you think people should wear a life jacket all of the time ?

This probably as likely to rattle the cages as the 'what anchor' debate but it seems in the UK I see a lot of life jacket wearers but moving towards warmer climes it seems different. Out of interest, looking at 'Superyacht' crews, T-shirts and shorts... No life jackets. Not even many of the marina staff manning the dinghys to help mooring.. So I'm not sure if it's regional or weather related but it's not universal.

 

[Metalicmike]

It’s a bit like when seat belts became compulsory....and we all thought we would die in burning or drowning vehicles....or the introduction of motorcycle helmets....although I’m struggling to remember why we thought that was a bad idea

That is a good point, life lines connect at the front so if you are wearing a life jacket with a harness. The life jacket is designed to float you on your back with your face out of the water and the life line will try to flip you over. I may be wrong but if you're lifeline is too long it could be more dangerous. I would think there is guidance information out there.

 

[Metalicmike]

This probably as likely to rattle the cages as the 'what anchor' debate but it seems in the UK I see a lot of life jacket wearers but moving towards warmer climes it seems different. Out of interest, looking at 'Superyacht' crews, T-shirts and shorts... No life jackets. Not even many of the marina staff manning the dinghys to help mooring.. So I'm not sure if it's regional or weather related but it's not universal.

 

[ylop]

That's ok on a calm sea but you wouldn't want to be beam on to the swell so I would want enough headway to keep the boat stable.

There are a lot of if's, firstly we are not talking about a sailboat therefore you should be tethered to a kill switch. Larger boats are much more difficult to fall out of.

Tethered to a kill switch on a boat where putting out fenders requires you to leave the helm in conditions where the boat is unstable if beam to the swell? Controversially if you can’t safely control the boat and do other essential activities - perhaps you are undermanned for the planned passage.

 

[ylop]

The examiner who did my yachtmaster exam refused to wear the lifejacket I handed him.

He said “they just make it easier to find the body”. Not sure I agree but it makes you think. He had been rescued mid Atlantic a week after abandoning into a tender so was quite experienced.

A common argument, surprising that it would come from a YM Examiner during an exam. He obviously didn’t have much faith in your MOB execution recovering him quickly! Either that or he has far too much faith in his ability to swim and hasn’t heard of cold shock.

I have to say unless I was desperate to get the certificate that week I’d probably have terminated the exam and complained to the RYA. Not necessarily because I’d be hugely concerned for his safety - but because being trapped on a boat for the duration of the exam with an alleged expert with that attitude would do my head in! If he’d said “I’m not going to be leaving the cockpit” I’d have had much more respect. Presumably there is nobody who would be waiting for his body to be brought back or estate to be settled because he’s an arrogant bore!

That is a good point, life lines connect at the front so if you are wearing a life jacket with a harness. The life jacket is designed to float you on your back with your face out of the water and the life line will try to flip you over. I may be wrong but if your lifeline is too long it could be more dangerous. I would think there is guidance information out there.

There is a brand (I think Team O?) who have a system designed to overcome this flaw. Unfortunately their supply chain got hammered in Covid and they went from looking like they might become a significant name to invisible and are now only just creeping back into being recognised. I’ve still never seen one in a chandler to try on for comfort.

 

[Metalicmike]

The water temperature here is normally around 22 degrees so the wearing of lifejackets depends on sea conditions and then most of us would stay in the Marina. If you are going on deck you should always wear a life jacket or a short harness. All my lines run to the cockpit and the only time I go forward is on entry to the Marina to set my fenders. If you have a tangle in the jib you can just let it fly and use the engine rather than put yourself in a dangerous situation.

 

[Metalicmike]

Tethered to a kill switch on a boat where putting out fenders requires you to leave the helm in conditions where the boat is unstable if beam to the swell? Controversially if you can’t safely control the boat and do other essential activities - perhaps you are undermanned for the planned passage.

I don't think that is controversial it's all about preparation. Secondly why would you put fenders out when beam to a swell I would rather be late to the wedding.

 

[Elessar]

A common argument, surprising that it would come from a YM Examiner during an exam. He obviously didn’t have much faith in your MOB execution recovering him quickly! Either that or he has far too much faith in his ability to swim and hasn’t heard of cold shock.

I have to say unless I was desperate to get the certificate that week I’d probably have terminated the exam and complained to the RYA. Not necessarily because I’d be hugely concerned for his safety - but because being trapped on a boat for the duration of the exam with an alleged expert with that attitude would do my head in! If he’d said “I’m not going to be leaving the cockpit” I’d have had much more respect. Presumably there is nobody who would be waiting for his body to be brought back or estate to be settled because he’s an arrogant bore!

There is a brand (I think Team O?) who have a system designed to overcome this flaw. Unfortunately their supply chain got hammered in Covid and they went from looking like they might become a significant name to invisible and are now only just creeping back into being recognised. I’ve still never seen one in a chandler to try on for comfort.

Terminate the exam?

How pompous and absurd. Force your belief that you are right onto someone else?

I spent 14 or 15 hours with a guy who had more experience than I am ever likely to acquire. I learned loads from him. You don’t have to agree with someone to learn from them.

I’d much rather sail with him than someone who tries to preach to me and thinks they are always right.

 

[ylop]

I don't think that is controversial it's all about preparation. Secondly why would you put fenders out when beam to a swell I would rather be late to the wedding.

I don’t know - I sail a sailing boat with Jackstays which are used only when it’s “lively”. We have never been in a situation where we needed to put fenders out and clip on. In fact I’m not sure I can recall a time when anyone had to leave the cockpit and clip on except to do stuff with sails. However there have been times when I’ve clipped on when inside the cockpit!

 

[Elessar]

The water temperature here is normally around 22 degrees so the wearing of lifejackets depends on sea conditions and then most of us would stay in the Marina. If you are going on deck you should always wear a life jacket or a short harness. All my lines run to the cockpit and the only time I go forward is on entry to the Marina to set my fenders. If you have a tangle in the jib you can just let it fly and use the engine rather than put yourself in a dangerous situation.

You are talking about a yacht. Not many mobos have a way of tethering on to go forward nor is there any real point.

To code a yacht you need 600mm high guard rails for a mobo it is 1m. And the need to go forward is far less frequent. At sea underway virtually nil.

 

[ylop]

Terminate the exam?

How pompous and absurd. Force your belief that you are right onto someone else?

You are the skipper, if you would expect someone on your vessel to wear a life jacket that policy should apply regardless of who they are. If you didn’t expect him to wear it then your anecdote is a bit misleading.

I spent 14 or 15 hours with a guy who had more experience than I am ever likely to acquire. I learned loads from him. You don’t have to agree with someone to learn from them.

Of course, but if I am responsible for their safety they have to accept my rules - that means on my vessel lifejackets are worn when the skipper says so, and with a standing policy that this is anytime we are outside the cockpit unless exceptionally good weather. If someone, even an RYA examiner, won’t stick to that policy they don’t come sailing with me. I’m pretty sure RYA would refund my exam fee if one of its examiners was refusing to follow a quite reasonable safety policy.

I’d much rather sail with him than someone who tries to preach to me and thinks they are always right.

Essentially he was preaching to you and thought he was right!

 

[Elessar]

You are the skipper, if you would expect someone on your vessel to wear a life jacket that policy should apply regardless of who they are. If you didn’t expect him to wear it then your anecdote is a bit misleading.

Of course, but if I am responsible for their safety they have to accept my rules - that means on my vessel lifejackets are worn when the skipper says so, and with a standing policy that this is anytime we are outside the cockpit unless exceptionally good weather. If someone, even an RYA examiner, won’t stick to that policy they don’t come sailing with me. I’m pretty sure RYA would refund my exam fee if one of its examiners was refusing to follow a quite reasonable safety policy.

Essentially he was preaching to you and thought he was right!

My goodness what pomposity.

I said to him “you are a way more experienced mariner than me so that’s fine. If you were a minor this would be a different conversation.”

He nodded and we moved on.

In what way was he preaching and which bit did I agree with?

 

[Bouba]

To board a motorboat from the sea…you have to get to stern…so how long a life line would you wear if working on the anchor ?…enough to get tangled up on deck…or go under the boat ?
If the line is short so that you can not physically go overboard….then it will be too short to use as you go around the boat holding the rails.
The example in the video of recovering a man overboard is probably a sensible idea

 

[Fire99]

I have to say, looking from a MOBO perspective, I like the idea of having a line, since I have plenty of places to store one but in most circumstances it seems a right ol faff to use one and on my boat I'm more likely to die tripping over the flamin' thing than I am going to be rescued by it. But you never know.

 

[Seastoke]

I understood that.

I have a problem if you are suggesting that people on my boat should wear them on somebody else’s say so.

Who is this some one else. !! A bit confused.

 

[Seastoke]

100% yes. Cancel when the emergency is over.

Calling only when the emergency escalates wastes time.

If they fell in and can climb out it will be over quickly.

If they are incapacitated you will likely need help no matter how you have practiced getting people back on board in still water.

Remember Rob James? Naomi James’ husband?

More experienced sailor than probably everyone here.

Fell through the trampoline on a cat as he was stowing sails to enter salcombe.

They found his body two weeks before Naomi had their first child.

Don’t fall in is the motto. Lifejackets can give a false sense of security.

The examiner who did my yachtmaster exam refused to wear the lifejacket I handed him.

He said “they just make it easier to find the body”. Not sure I agree but it makes you think. He had been rescued mid Atlantic a week after abandoning into a tender so was quite experienced.

Ok last question , mob , you put your life jacket on, make a mayday , then go and help Mob . Don’t worry you will never see them again.