Would you install this Lithium battery?

Y

yachtorion

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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lifepo4-1...947d7b&pid=100227&rk=3&rkt=15&sd=152114682243

Link to a lithium battery pack on eBay. 12v/40AH which I figure is equivalent to an 80AH lead acid. At these figures it should pay for itself in terms of greatly increased cycle life over a Lead Acid, though not for a long time. I figure it's about twice the price of a good gel battery and four times the price of a low quality VRLA.

The advantage would be the reduced dimensions and particularly the greatly decreased weight would make mounting the battery (and removing it from the trailer sailing boat for charging) loads easier. The weight saving (potentially nearly 30kg) might be relevant on a 22 foot lightweight boat.

Downsides... safety? It's Lithium Phosphate which is meant to be much safer, many of us probably have similar cells on board in laptops or torches etc... but what about this pack?

What do folks think?
 
snowbird30ds said:
How will it be charged? I'm not sure lithium ion batteries are ok charged from a regular alternator, they burn pretty fierce when it goes wrong.
I'd stick to lead acid myself.
Click to expand...

No alternator on my boat. I can pick a suitable solar regulator but with a battery that small I might just try to get the pub to plug it in with a suitable charger while I was having dinner. It does have a built in battery management/protection board - I've asked the seller for a datasheet.

That said, firey explosiony things are definitely also my main concern.
 
They do generally need an appropriate charger (not cheap) that balances the charge within each cell.
Fire risk is increased during charging but it wont be on the boat then. If worried about fire risk then place in metal container.
With limited space and need to save weight I would probably give it a go.
 
I have no knowledge of these packs. But the safety in a laptop battery is largely a function of the circuitry they contain. They monitor the voltage of each cell and are able to isolate the system in the case of unusual temperature or behavior. So it rather comes down to how sophisticated the protection system is.
 
Another thought is "would I be happy buying a high value item from a seller who only has 1 feedback for selling (pair of roof bars) and 138 for buying in the last 12 months and states "No Returns" in the listing".
 
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I'm no expert but have been told that LiFePo batteries cease working below 0 Celsius, which may or may not be a problem.
 
Not a chance!

Having seen how carefully you need to charge smaller versions for model racing cars, and what happens when they go BANG, there is no chance that they would be going anywhere near my boat.
 
Giblets said:
Another thought is "would I be happy buying a high value item from a seller who only has 1 feedback for selling (pair of roof bars) and 138 for buying in the last 12 months and states "No Returns" in the listing".
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Agreed, you could try a non eBay supplier. I think this one has been used by people on another forum. Smaller ones seem to have built-in monitoring via Bluetooth, larger ones seem to be out of stock at the moment. I think that they also sell kits with charger, monitoring and batteries for their Sinopoly range (third type below).

https://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-ba...ry-12V-22Ah-with-PCM-and-Bluetooth.html?cur=1
https://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-40Ah-WB-LP12V40AH.html?cur=1
https://www.ev-power.eu/Sinopoly-40Ah-300Ah/SP-LFP40AHA-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-40Ah.html?cur=1
 
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I have to say I would buy if battery or any of the charging gear has been made in china as they are very good at getting approval on samples and leaving half the components out on the mass produced product, this normally has no noticable effect on operation but safety and rf interference suffers badly.
If samsung can't get it right what chance do we have via ebay?
 
Mistroma said:
Agreed, you could try a non eBay supplier. I think this one has been used by people on another forum. Smaller ones seem to have built-in monitoring via Bluetooth, larger ones seem to be out of stock at the moment. I think that they also sell kits with charger, monitoring and batteries for their Sinopoly range (third type below).

https://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-ba...ry-12V-22Ah-with-PCM-and-Bluetooth.html?cur=1
https://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-40Ah-WB-LP12V40AH.html?cur=1
https://www.ev-power.eu/Sinopoly-40Ah-300Ah/SP-LFP40AHA-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-40Ah.html?cur=1
Click to expand...

That looks like a very good option.
 
snowbird30ds said:
I have to say I would buy if battery or any of the charging gear has been made in china as they are very good at getting approval on samples and leaving half the components out on the mass produced product, this normally has no noticable effect on operation but safety and rf interference suffers badly.
If samsung can't get it right what chance do we have via ebay?
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Your post doesn't seem to make sense. Is there perhaps a "not" missing from somewhere near the beginning?
 
So after more research:

* Agree that supplier needs more seller feedback and to provide more data on the batteries - they haven't yet responded to my request.
* The non-eBay supplier sells lots of great options...
* ...but charging is still an issue if planning anything other than charging from a mains supply. Ideally, it needs special solar regulators or alternator controls that disconnect the charge once the battery is near full rather than providing a float voltage. Good quality batteries should handle modest float voltages - but it will drastically shorten battery life. These special devices don't seem to be readily available. I don't have an alternator but I'd like to be able to use solar.

It all seems so close.... but sadly for now despite the rubbish cycle life and the excessive weight - Lead Acid still seems to be the winner on boats.
 
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Speculation: I have an Overlander RC6-VSP charger which can be supplied from a 12V source, hence perhaps it could be fed from a solar panel or other 12v source and it will deal with the lithium's demands?

It will charge at 7A and will charge 12V lead acid from 12V input, so presumably has a switch mode power supply or similar inside?
 
SAPurdie said:
Speculation: I have an Overlander RC6-VSP charger which can be supplied from a 12V source, hence perhaps it could be fed from a solar panel or other 12v source and it will deal with the lithium's demands?

It will charge at 7A and will charge 12V lead acid from 12V input, so presumably has a switch mode power supply or similar inside?
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Sounds like an interesting possibility but after a quick dig I think I'd end up needing a lead acid connected between the solar and the charger...
 
I think there's a bit of misunderstanding and over-reaction going on here.

The lithium batteries that have notoriously caught fire in Boeings and in I-phones etc are different.
They are the ultra high efficiency type that, yes need very careful management. In those devices they use those type of batteries to get the very maximum power in a small space / minimum weight.

The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) type are marginally less efficient, but hugely safer in that they aren't prone to catching fire.

These are the type of batteries used in cars like Tesla, Nissan Leaf and many others.
They still need careful management and correct charging - but that's to ensure they are not excessively discharged (below about 80% IIRC which dramatically reduces their life) and maintain them at optimum temperatures for efficiency. But they are still hugely more efficient and lighter than LA's which can't be discharged below 50% more than a few times.

So aside from the different charging regime required compared to LA batteries that's probably the biggest limitation of LiFePO4, that at low temps they don't work very well. But then in truth neither do LA's.

There are some marine suppliers fitting Lithiums now, e.g. in Greenlines etc but the high cost still puts people off. But please don't associate all Lithium batteries with fires and thermal runaway, it's just not true.
Extensive tests carried out by Tesla and many LiFePO4 battery manufacturers have shown just how safe they are. They've driven metal spikes through fully charged packs and nothing happened, etc

If I can find some copies of some of the tests I'll post links.

But in the meantime please read up for yourselves, do some research before generalising and spreading misconceived scare stories.
 
Trundlebug said:
I think there's a bit of misunderstanding and over-reaction going on here.

The lithium batteries that have notoriously caught fire in Boeings and in I-phones etc are different.
They are the ultra high efficiency type that, yes need very careful management. In those devices they use those type of batteries to get the very maximum power in a small space / minimum weight.

The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) type are marginally less efficient, but hugely safer in that they aren't prone to catching fire.

These are the type of batteries used in cars like Tesla, Nissan Leaf and many others.
They still need careful management and correct charging - but that's to ensure they are not excessively discharged (below about 80% IIRC which dramatically reduces their life) and maintain them at optimum temperatures for efficiency. But they are still hugely more efficient and lighter than LA's which can't be discharged below 50% more than a few times.

So aside from the different charging regime required compared to LA batteries that's probably the biggest limitation of LiFePO4, that at low temps they don't work very well. But then in truth neither do LA's.

There are some marine suppliers fitting Lithiums now, e.g. in Greenlines etc but the high cost still puts people off. But please don't associate all Lithium batteries with fires and thermal runaway, it's just not true.
Extensive tests carried out by Tesla and many LiFePO4 battery manufacturers have shown just how safe they are. They've driven metal spikes through fully charged packs and nothing happened, etc

If I can find some copies of some of the tests I'll post links.

But in the meantime please read up for yourselves, do some research before generalising and spreading misconceived scare stories.
Click to expand...

I saw lots of videos on youtube and they looked pretty scary. However, they were really abusing the batteries with bullets, short circuits, burning in oil drums etc. In fact the link below shows all of these things in one video and there will be plenty of others suggested if you look at it. Didn't put me off considering them as a possible replacement for my T105s which are coming up to 5 years service. However, they show no signs of failing and should be OK for a few more years. I'm hoping that the choice will be more obvious by the time they do require replacement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQs7L5LmEss

Lead acid batteries also do scary things when abused or subject to catastrophic failure. Probably worse than the video in the link. It isn't usually a good idea to abuse anything storing a lot of energy and to adhere to normal usage conditions.
 
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For Lithium Iron Phosphate cells of known quality and with a BMS I wouldn't be worried about the fire/explosion thing.... but the charging is still too awkward... and cold temperature charging does look like a potential issue.
 
Trundlebug said:
I think there's a bit of misunderstanding and over-reaction going on here.

The lithium batteries that have notoriously caught fire in Boeings and in I-phones etc are different.
They are the ultra high efficiency type that, yes need very careful management. In those devices they use those type of batteries to get the very maximum power in a small space / minimum weight.

The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) type are marginally less efficient, but hugely safer in that they aren't prone to catching fire.

These are the type of batteries used in cars like Tesla, Nissan Leaf and many others.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but I didn't think that Tesla used LiFePO4 battery chemistry at all. As I understand it, Tesla uses an NCA battery (LiNiCoAlO2) in the classic 18650 rechargeable torch battery format (just 7500 of them lurking in the floor of a Model S!). NCA has a higher specific energy, but requires thermal management.
 
Several other points against the use of these

1. fully charged =15.5V . can the average alternator deliver this?
2. if it did, would this voltage blow all your 12V bulbs?
3. is its CCA enough to start a decent size diesel - especially on a cold day?
 
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