Would you have stayed on board?

[lustyd]

In what way am I wrong?

It wasn’t protected in the forecast conditions. As demonstrated by the various issues in the loch when those conditions arrived. It’s not up for debate and it’s not down to misunderstanding, it was not protected that night. To come to any other conclusion is ludicrous.

If you think you can mitigate things by moving in 80kt winds then you’ll be the next customer of the RNLI.

 

[ylop]

It wasn’t protected in the forecast conditions. As demonstrated by the various issues in the loch when those conditions arrived. It’s not up for debate and it’s not down to misunderstanding, it was not protected that night. To come to any other conclusion is ludicrous.

If you think you can mitigate things by moving in 80kt winds then you’ll be the next customer of the RNLI.

Nowhere was "protected" that night. The wind is coming no matter what, but the fetch is relatively small in there and the photographs are consistent with what I saw elsewhere with a fairly short fetch. Horrible; gear testing, but not actually biblical. There are places I'd rather be, but the worst case scenario of dragging onto mud here is potentially not too bad and the small fetch means the waves might not give your boat too much of a pounding on the shore. The fact you can get off and scramble ashore in almost any direction is a selling point for disaster planning. Whilst a mooring somewhere else might have been safer, you then are relying on others not breaking their moorings etc and crashing into you. If my boat had broken its moorings, it would have been a total loss on a rocky shore.

There's a comment on the Scotsman article from someone on board the mini-cruise boat dunedin was talking about who said (i) their anchor had dragged at one point too; (ii) the yachtsman seemed to have limited English; (iii) he's a liveaboard with his entire posessions were on board; (iv) the conditions were diabolical; (v) she honestly believed she was going to watch him drown - now we don't know that she was an expert mariner who really knew the risk of that but its clear that this wasn't one boat over reacting.

 

[lustyd]

Several of my friends spoke to him the next morning and were on board a vessel that night at the marina. They sent me footage. It simply wasn’t the best choice in the area given the forecast.
Assuming you can pick up and move to the other side of a loch in those winds is folly so any talk about there being different options if the wind moves is pure armchair sailing.

 

[jakew009]

Thought this was interesting, AIS tracks of the two lifeboats and the trip boat

This guy also chilled out in the same place but not until the following day

 

[noelex]

We have spent many nights anchored in Loch Aline, mostly in winter during the second long COVID lockdown. That winter, five named storms hit the UK, with two directly affecting the area, so while I was not present for Storm Amy, we have experienced similar conditions there (see post #48 ). Loch Aline is a good choice for bad weather.

Despite what is written on these forums, many boats drag in these very strong winds, and I would not let this one report put you off this location.

Below is a photo in quieter times showing the patches of ice in the Loch and snow on the hills. It is also a beautiful part of the world.

 

[GEM43]

There are so few anchorages that give 360deg protection, are there any? It’s the veering of the wind as the low passes by that creates the difficulty. I endured a named storm in the Clyde a couple of years ago at the Burnt Isles. Excellent protection for all wind directions locally but one has to be prepared to move. We started in the east Kyle at Colintraive then had to move in the dark to the west Kyle (Blackfarland) and then later back to Wreck Bay. Loch Aline is too big to give 100% protection to a small craft, there just too much fetch, hence the necessity to move. Also hence my preference for Drumbuie.

 

[lustyd]

There are so few anchorages that give 360deg protection, are there any?

The forecast was southerly then westerly. No need for 360 degree protection if you have a good forecast.

hence the necessity to move

Which is fine until you din’t have the power to motor against the wind, as happened here.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... Loch Aline is a good choice for bad weather. ... Despite what is written on these forums, many boats drag in these very strong winds, and I would not let this one report put you off this location. ...

I have different criteria for selecting a bolt hole. I would not place myself anywhere near a lee shore on such a night for the simple reason that time to grounding is so short in the event of a mooring failure.

The wind gusts were showing on many models to be in excess of 60kts, from the 01st and 2nd of October, so plenty of warning was available. Wind direction was changing as the forecast models got closer to the day with the W and NW being replaced by S to SW (not all models) for this area. It was easy to establish that the location the boat was in would see F11 and 12 gusts from the S to SW. The Met Office were also warning of sudden deepening as the low crossed the jet stream, rather than run with it.

Yes, Loch Aline is a good bolt hole, but the anchored location was not the best choice in my opinion. Easy on hindsight to say that but I have experienced a very similar risk when my prop shaft coupling sheared in a F9, manoeuvring away from a hazard, near to a lee shore and by some miracle, after I rapidly launched my CQR it held, at low tide I was aground but got towed off.

 

[dunedin]

Thought this was interesting, AIS tracks of the two lifeboats and the trip boat

So it looks like the Emma Jane lifted her anchor and motored about for a bit during the worst of the storm, before returning to anchor near the top end of the Loch where they started.
Fine if you are a big steel vessel with plenty of professional crew and a very sturdy anchor winch system, a lot more tricky solo on a yacht.

 

[dunedin]

It wasn’t protected in the forecast conditions. As demonstrated by the various issues in the loch when those conditions arrived. It’s not up for debate and it’s not down to misunderstanding, it was not protected that night. To come to any other conclusion is ludicrous.

If you think you can mitigate things by moving in 80kt winds then you’ll be the next customer of the RNLI.

OK smarty pants, where would you have gone to shelter in the area, assuming the pontoons at Kerrera and Tobermory were full (as they often are with any breezy forecast)?
Remember the forecast had the wind swinging a lot and so need plenty of room.
Loch Aline has excellent holding, well sheltered with trees and no steep hill valleys to accelerate the gusts, plus entirely encircled by land. Unfortunately the SE corner is largely full with moorings.
Loch Drambuie suffers from rapidly changing depths, leading to risk of being too close to shore if wind swings landward or anchor dropping off the shelf if blowing offshore.
Over to you for your suggestions?

 

[lustyd]

OK smarty pants, where would you have gone to shelter in the area, assuming the pontoons at Kerrera and Tobermory were full (as they often are with any breezy forecast)?

I already covered this further up the thread. Tobermory is a far better anchorage for the conditions forecast and experienced that day and only two hours away.

We’ve never seen either full despite spending many weeks between the two in stormy conditions. It’s that sort of talk that stops people trying and putting themselves at risk.

We’ve also never left it until the day of a storm to find a safe place to stop, but regardless never saw them full enough to turn a boat away.

 

[benjenbav]

Back to the original question, my answer - quite simply - is: ‘I don’t know’.

I am not at all familiar with the area and - being 500 miles away throughout Storm Amy - cannot speak for the conditions.

I do know something about SAR press releases, which are designed not only to educate but also to reinforce awareness of organisations that desperately need donations to keep on doing what they do.

As such, it’s not impossible that the skipper would report the same events with a different emphasis.

Without hearing more than one perspective I really do think that it isn’t possible to understand what happened, much less for me, at least, to think what I might have done had I been the skipper of Emma Jane.

 

[Bouba]

Back to the original question, my answer - quite simply - is: ‘I don’t know’.

I am not at all familiar with the area and - being 500 miles away throughout Storm Amy - cannot speak for the conditions.

I do know something about SAR press releases, which are designed not only to educate but also to reinforce awareness of organisations that desperately need donations to keep on doing what they do.

As such, it’s not impossible that the skipper would report the same events with a different emphasis.

Without hearing more than one perspective I really do think it isn’t possible to understand what happened, much less for me, at least, to think what I might have done had I been the skipper of Emma Jane.

That’s not really in the spirit of the internet, is it ?......scant facts, much supposition and raised voices...is enough to reach a conclusion that you are willing to (metaphorically) die for

 

[capnsensible]

That’s not really in the spirit of the internet, is it ?......scant facts, much supposition and raised voices...is enough to reach a conclusion that you are willing to (metaphorically) die for

Situation normal 113 posts and still no one knows what really happened.

 

[lustyd]

Without hearing more than one perspective I really do think that it isn’t possible to understand what happened, much less for me, at least, to think what I might have done had I been the skipper of Emma Jane.

Having heard what the skipper said, I don’t think he did much wrong, just had some bad circumstances. My comments were not about the skipper, they were about the anchorage.

 

[lustyd]

Situation normal 113 posts and still no one knows what really happened.

I actually do in this instance, but I’m not repeating any of it here for this lot. The skipper made reasonable choices in the circumstances.

 

[dunedin]

Situation normal 113 posts and still no one knows what really happened.

Actually a poster involved with the RNLI has posted part of the story, regarding the lifeboat having partial engine failure due to weed.
And the yacht appeared to have been reanchored and stayed afloat thereafter, with the anchor holding.
Meanwhile a much larger trip boat lifted anchor and motored before reanchoring.

AND. This stuff is very important to many of us on here, who have had to cope with severe storms when cruising these waters. Where to go and how to survive is essential to those of us who frewquent these waters,
I have had at least four F10 plus events during the cruising season in Scottish waters. The scariest of all was the first in Arisaig, which was a maelstrom and at least 5 boats broke off the moorings and crashed ashore in Arisaig alone. I would never try to weather a SW Storm there again (this was before 7 day forecasts so we only had 24 hours notice and zero pontoons in the area north of Ardnamurchan in those days).
Loch Aline is a regular anchorage for me so very relevant.

 

[GEM43]

OK smarty pants, where would you have gone to shelter in the area, assuming the pontoons at Kerrera and Tobermory were full (as they often are with any breezy forecast)?

Over to you for your suggestions?

Reality is that this conundrum is part of the joy (and fear) of cruising West Scotland. The Clyde is easy enough, there are storm proof marinas regardless of wind direction and wind shift. But once out west there isn't anywhere that is 100% storm proof, perhaps with the exceptions of Stornoway marina and the basin at Crinan. One has to be prepared for the necessity to tough it out at anchor, as unpleasant and risky as that can be - or swap for a narrowboat maybe.

 

[capnsensible]

Good advice on where to anchor.

However most of the rest of the thread is the usual suspects speculation, imagination and wild guessing.

Adds to the entertainment though if it's not taken seriously.,

I have sailed a lot in that area. The worst weather I ever encountered up there was on a Submarine alongside in Coulport. As OOD i got extra shore lines on, called the Captain to keep him informed and had an interesting night.

 

[NormanS]

I already covered this further up the thread. Tobermory is a far better anchorage for the conditions forecast and experienced that day and only two hours away.

We’ve never seen either full despite spending many weeks between the two in stormy conditions. It’s that sort of talk that stops people trying and putting themselves at risk.

We’ve also never left it until the day of a storm to find a safe place to stop, but regardless never saw them full enough to turn a boat away.

So what do you do, or where do you go when you're at Tobermory and there's a forecast gale out of the NE?
I also presume that although you mention "anchorage" at Tobermory, what you really mean is either a pontoon berth or a Visitor mooring.

Good advice on where to anchor.

However most of the rest of the thread is the usual suspects speculation, imagination and wild guessing.

Adds to the entertainment though if it's not taken seriously.,

I have sailed a lot in that area. The worst weather I ever encountered up there was on a Submarine alongside in Coulport. As OOD i got extra shore lines on, called the Captain to keep him informed and had an interesting night.

You should have just submerged and sat comfortably on the bottom.