Would you cross Biscay in an AWB ??

[aquaholic]

Still looking into this boat that I will be looking to buy next year ish and have just read an article about a benny 393 that lost a crew member over the side after suffering a knockdown in a F9 where the boat didnt right itself for some time, the MIAB mentioned that the weight of the boat was of course a factor, although this happened some time ago It got me thinking about whether an AWB would be the right choice to get me to the Canaries in one piece? As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of
£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

 

[Bajansailor]

Hundreds, if not thousands, of AWBs have travelled the route that you are planning on taking, quietly and without fanfare - its only the ones where something goes wrong that you generally hear about.
Once you get to the Canaries, will you be hanging a right and crossing the pond to the Windies?
If yes, it might be worthwhile looking at boats for sale out here - there are a lot of fairly good deals to be had with ex charter boats.
Pal of mine bought a 1999 Jeanneau SO 40 in Tortola last year for GBP 42k, and she is a very fine vessel indeed, and sails like a witch.

Here is a SO 37 for sale with BVI Yacht Sales (who were the brokers for the SO 40 as well) for US$ 49k, although they admit that she needs some TLC :
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...er&&hosturl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&

 

[aquaholic]

Hundreds, if not thousands, of AWBs have travelled the route that you are planning on taking, quietly and without fanfare - its only the ones where something goes wrong that you generally hear about.
Once you get to the Canaries, will you be hanging a right and crossing the pond to the Windies?
If yes, it might be worthwhile looking at boats for sale out here - there are a lot of fairly good deals to be had with ex charter boats.
Pal of mine bought a 1999 Jeanneau SO 40 in Tortola last year for GBP 42k, and she is a very fine vessel indeed, and sails like a witch.

Here is a SO 37 for sale with BVI Yacht Sales (who were the brokers for the SO 40 as well) for US$ 49k, although they admit that she needs some TLC :
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...er&&hosturl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&

Thanks, I did wonder if I was being a little over cautious. The plan would be just the Canaries at this stage as work commitments would not allow for more than a couple of months off.

 

[padipaddy]

Oh DEAR !!

Can someone tell me what AWB means ?


regards

Robert

 

[Kawasaki]

'Average White Boat'!

 

[aquaholic]

... so Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria basically, and normally a question of this nature (i.e. on the ability of AWBs to do anything more strenuous than sail around in light winds and clog up marinas!) will run and run...

Are we talking from experience here? didnt realise they had that bad a reputation, maybe I should stick to my old 30 footer

 

[V1701]

Oh DEAR !!

Can someone tell me what AWB means ?


regards

Robert

... so Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria basically, and normally a question of this nature (i.e. on the ability of AWBs to do anything more strenuous than sail around in light winds and clog up marinas!) will run and run...

 

[V1701]

Are we talking from experience here? didnt realise they had that bad a reputation, maybe I should stick to my old 30 footer

Ooops time warp, no please don't get me wrong, they do have that bad a reputation amongst some people, which a lot of owners think is unjustified. I am the proud owner of a Jeanneau Sundream 28...

 

[Bosun Higgs]

As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of £70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

The MAIB is an independant body set up to investigate accidents so you should not write off what they say in favour of opinions on here.

Every boat is a compromise - boats that would sail the southern oceans would not be suitable for family cruising and vice versa. But yes I would cross Biscay in an AWB but I would chose my weather with care and take a short crossing like from Bordeaux to Bilbao rather than Falmouth to La Coruna. Other people might be less risk averse and get away with it.

Safety at sea is very size dependant so I would chose a big Benny in preference to a small HR

 

[aquaholic]

Ooops time warp, no please don't get me wrong, they do have that bad a reputation amongst some people, which a lot of owners think is unjustified. I am the proud owner of a Jeanneau Sundream 28...

Ah I see, so a hint of sarcasm there then.......I must keep up

 

[cmedsailor]

I have also read that article myself and made me wondering (I am a Beneteau owner). But after some thinking....
- One experienced skipper and two guys that have gained most of their experience during the delivery trip.
- Forecasts (for the Biscay) of Force 6-7-8 and depsite the crew's concerns the skipper decided to leave Spain. (I believe the Biscay has a bad reputation when things gets rough).
- Most of the night watches were done by the crew and the skipper was mainly "stand by".
The boat was hit twice by huge breaking waves and despite capsized (keep in mind that theory says that all boats capsize if hit by some relative to their size breaking waves) it turned around itself and never sunk.
Are we asking too much from a boat? And after all, why take the risk?

PS: Definately there are stronger boats that will cope better with bad weather but still need experienced people to handle them.

 

[Neil_Y]

Simple answer yes, but there are a variety of AWB's I also read the account of the 393 incident before deciding to buy a Bav 390.

The Benny if I remember didn't have a as good a ballast ratio or righting moment curve, however it is how you treat the boat and how you sail that I believe is more important for your safety.

In the same storm of F9+ in Biscay in November, a 55' yacht suffered waves breaking into the cockpit which put off a few of the crew who jumped ship in Coruna, we had two nights of hove to relatively comfortable and quite safe with hatches firmly shut, we were being knocked flat by a few waves and my concern was of a half roll or more than 90 deg knock down with people in the cockpit with a following sea and large swell. Sitting it out for two nights in relative safety meant we were rested fed warm and ready to carry on in daylight.

The Bav was within your budget and easily capable of a world cruise, I'd be happy with this design anywhere.

We had an equally bad storm 700miles from teh Azores on the way back, the Bav did good and mots of the crew felt quite happy despite enourmous following seas, we trailed warps and sailed under storm jib for a couple of days.

Make sure you look at the rudder system, and rig as well as all through hull fittings these are the iportant things, and these are what have caused problems for me on what most would say are better tougher yachts.

Good luck and have a good trip.

 

[Heckler]

Still looking into this boat that I will be looking to buy next year ish and have just read an article about a benny 393 that lost a crew member over the side after suffering a knockdown in a F9 where the boat didnt right itself for some time, the MIAB mentioned that the weight of the boat was of course a factor, although this happened some time ago It got me thinking about whether an AWB would be the right choice to get me to the Canaries in one piece? As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of
£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

The AWB that you are talking about was a 390, a delivery if my memory serves me right, set off in a force 9? Gung ho was the flavour that came from the inquest as far as I remember.
Stu

 

[bbg]

Yes, I would do that trip in a 35 foot AWB without hesitation.

More people have died whilst travelling on ferries than on leisure craft [my assumption - based solely on my memory of press reports]. Would this stop you travelling on a ferry?*

*Actually, it might stop me from travelling on a ferry in a developing country in bad weather!

 

[westernman]

Yes, I would do that trip in a 35 foot AWB without hesitation.

More people have died whilst travelling on ferries than on leisure craft [my assumption - based solely on my memory of press reports]. Would this stop you travelling on a ferry?*

*Actually, it might stop me from travelling on a ferry in a developing country in bad weather!

Lots of people died on the Herald of Free Enterprise.
The weather was not bad, and neither the country it was sailing from, nor the country it was sailing to could really be considered as a developing country.

It is going to take some time until the number of deaths from pleasure boating catch up with that one accident.

I had sailed a few years earlier than the accident on the Herald of Free Enterprise - as I am sure quite a few people on these forums have as well.

 

[samwise]

Quite a number of AWBs took part in the recent ARC in which the run down to the Canaries is the prelude to a trans-Atlantic. They seemed to perform pretty well and the crews on the Bavs and Jeaneteaus I spoke to were generally happy with their performance. A number of them had been modified and improved in some key areas, for example in deck fittings, winches and some running gear in order to cope with the additional stresses and strains of longer voyages.

 

[purplerobbie]

I was in Rodney Bay in december when the ARC had finished and was very surprised on just how many AWB's there was.

They by far outnumbered what i considered to be more traditional blue water cruisers HR's, Oysters and so on.

Rob

 

[Aardee]

Didn't Stingo of this parish cross Biscay (and beyond) in an Oceanis 390...?

 

[purplerobbie]

He did.
He crossed the atlantic in it then sold it to someone else of this parish who then brought it back across.

Rob

 

[Wandering Star]

He did.
He crossed the atlantic in it then sold it to someone else of this parish who then brought it back across.

Rob

The report I think Aquaholic refers to was in respect of a Beneteau 390 not a 393 though I'm uncertain whether there are differences other than cosmetic ones between the boat designs. When Stingo was about to set sail he made the same enquiry on this forum as Aquaholics, since the report at that time was fairly recent.

I can't remember the details of the report now but I recollect the crew were novices, the skipper was apparently experienced with a YM qualification. There was a deadline to meet and the crew set out from NW Spain into full gale force winds with a forecast as I recall of increasingly severe weather. Anyone who has encountered gale force winds in Biscay will know a Biscay gale will create seas which are a lot rougher than might be expected. In my humble experience that skipper shouldn't have left the harbour in those conditions and certainly not with a forecast for increasingly bad weather, with the crew he had on board.

It's one thing to meet a rising gale on passage but quite another to set out from the safety of a harbour into the teeth of a full gale and predictably things did go from bad to worse, (I think the engine conked out, there was a sail wrap and the crew were seasick?) Ultimately the boat was rolled as a lot of boats would be in those circumstances but unfortunately the MAIB report identified it took longer than was considered acceptable to right itself. Whether the crew would have survived if it had righted sooner is debatable especially considering the wrong decisions (in my opinion obviously) which had been made all along.

I wrote in Stingos original thread 7 years ago that I wouldn't have any qualms taking his boat across. Subsequently he did so and he cruised Brazil and the Caribbean. He then had a few house-let problems in UK so returned to UK and left Stingo for 3 years in Trinidad where she deteriorated badly as a result of the humidity.

I purchased Stingo in a very poor cosmetic condition still lying ashore in Trinidad and spent a lot of time and money refitting her. Myself and another forumite sailed her to Lagos in June this year and this is where she's now berthed. There were no issues with stability or anything else apart from a persistently dicky engine alternator which refused to work despite 3 major expensive and professional repairs en-route (now replaced)!

The Beneteau 390 is a great boat, the loss of life is very sad but as I recall, if ever there was a case of an accident waiting to happen it was that particular delivery trip.

Cheers, Brian.