Zen Zero
Well-Known Member
you could rivet it, but by the time you'd assembled your tools and materials, including the writ (now where do you get them from?), anyone who intended to flee would have flown.
Would you claim salvage?
- Thread starter Babylon
- Start date
you could rivet it, but by the time you'd assembled your tools and materials, including the writ (now where do you get them from?), anyone who intended to flee would have flown.
lw395
Well-Known Member
They didn't have duct tape in them days!
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
Like a lot of things in sailing, the terminology doesn't change just because duck tape is used!
If you attempt to move a boat that is subject to a writ, then the penalties are dire. One of the features of maritime law is it has evolved to deal with boats that are very mobile. If anyone, for any reason (including a boatyard), has a lien against your boat, then getting a writ is easy. The rationale is you get a writ and then sort out the problem with everyone still in the port's jurisdiction, rather than worry about the merits of the case first and then try to pursue the miscreants around the world.
If you attempt to move a boat that is subject to a writ, then the penalties are dire. One of the features of maritime law is it has evolved to deal with boats that are very mobile. If anyone, for any reason (including a boatyard), has a lien against your boat, then getting a writ is easy. The rationale is you get a writ and then sort out the problem with everyone still in the port's jurisdiction, rather than worry about the merits of the case first and then try to pursue the miscreants around the world.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
My only memorable experience was when motoring towards Eastbourne from the east, in a Force 0, see like glass. Saw a boat with sails up going nowhere, so headed towards it to find one chap on board, Polish ensign, 18ft wooden boat. Managed to establish that he had run out of petrol for his outboard, so we towed him the final 3 miles into the Sovereign marina lock from where the marina staff got him onto the fuel pontoon.
By the time we had properly moored up and walked back to look for him, he was gone. He had told the marina staff he only had enough money for the fuel, not to stay overnight, so he went back out to continue sailing down the Channel.
Often wondered where he ended up.
By the time we had properly moored up and walked back to look for him, he was gone. He had told the marina staff he only had enough money for the fuel, not to stay overnight, so he went back out to continue sailing down the Channel.
Often wondered where he ended up.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Actually, it's DUCT tape, ie for taping up ducts, but the terminology doesn't change what you are trying to say!!
prv
Well-Known Member
lw395
Well-Known Member
Actually, it's DUCT tape, ie for taping up ducts, but the terminology doesn't change what you are trying to say!!
This stuff is ideal for taping up gorillas presumably:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gorilla-Tap...30HM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1349258203&sr=8-5
Duck tape is a brand of 'duct tape' like sellotape and scotch tape are brands of 'clear adhesive tape'
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
st599
Well-Known Member
Actually, it's DUCT tape, ie for taping up ducts, but the terminology doesn't change what you are trying to say!!
No, it's DUCK - it's a brand name.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
Generic duct tape goes rotten in about a weeks sunshine. Duck tape is slightly better in this regard and is the preferred tape when securing writs. Please try to keep up.
Vara
Well-Known Member
I have been towed in by stranger boats twice, one a mobo and one a sailing boat. I have towed a stranger boat in once.
On all occasions suitable bottles changed hands...
Oh and the mobo offered the use of their washing machine/tumble dryer and shower, when we got in as we were wet and miserable.
Salvage I don't think so.
On all occasions suitable bottles changed hands...
Oh and the mobo offered the use of their washing machine/tumble dryer and shower, when we got in as we were wet and miserable.
Salvage I don't think so.
PeterHoare
Active Member
I've only been in the position of being in the right place to help someone once and did so gladly, even though it meant going some distance out of my way - as others have said it might be me needing help one day.
In our case we (wife and me) were on flotilla in Turkey on a free sailing day. We were tacking west towards Marmaris intending to moor at Kumlu Buku for the night.
Near Marmaris, the wind died and the people on a yacht (which we had crossed tacks with a few times during the day) gave us the 'distress' wave. Motored over to them and found they could not start their engine and would appreciate a tow. They asked where we were going and when I told them said they would wait for someone else as a tow would take us out of our way.
We looked around and told them not to be silly - we were the only other yacht around. Towed them through the narrow channel into Marmaris Bay and up to the marina - took three hours, the last hour of which was in the dark - useful experience.
They offered us the cost of our fuel plus dinner. We refused the fuel as we had intended to go into Marmaris the next day anyway but accepted what turned out to be a very pleasant dinner and interesting conversation.
In our case we (wife and me) were on flotilla in Turkey on a free sailing day. We were tacking west towards Marmaris intending to moor at Kumlu Buku for the night.
Near Marmaris, the wind died and the people on a yacht (which we had crossed tacks with a few times during the day) gave us the 'distress' wave. Motored over to them and found they could not start their engine and would appreciate a tow. They asked where we were going and when I told them said they would wait for someone else as a tow would take us out of our way.
We looked around and told them not to be silly - we were the only other yacht around. Towed them through the narrow channel into Marmaris Bay and up to the marina - took three hours, the last hour of which was in the dark - useful experience.
They offered us the cost of our fuel plus dinner. We refused the fuel as we had intended to go into Marmaris the next day anyway but accepted what turned out to be a very pleasant dinner and interesting conversation.
martyn78
Well-Known Member
Daedelus
Well-Known Member
Since that comes to around 17,000,000 tonnes Metric I don't think I could tow it.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Towed a few in over the years, little motorboats, yachts, no problem, just did it.
Most interesting one. I was going in to Marina Bay, Gib on a Bavaria 37. Gib has cheapo diesel. About to go on the rocks in front of us was a Sunseeker 55 that had run out of diesel on the way to the diesel dock to get cheapo diesel.
Got a tow on him, went back out past the runway to get a decent swing to turn back in, its a lot to ask of a Volvo 35 ish donk. Got whined at by the Air Traffic loudspeaker, ignored. Police boat came over and refused to assist, well no prob, carried on round and put the guy alongside Petrol Station.
Slipped then he waved us back, 'heres a drink chaps'...200 euros. Ta.
Definitely no motor boat gloating, driven a few myself on E for Enough!
Most interesting one. I was going in to Marina Bay, Gib on a Bavaria 37. Gib has cheapo diesel. About to go on the rocks in front of us was a Sunseeker 55 that had run out of diesel on the way to the diesel dock to get cheapo diesel.
Got a tow on him, went back out past the runway to get a decent swing to turn back in, its a lot to ask of a Volvo 35 ish donk. Got whined at by the Air Traffic loudspeaker, ignored. Police boat came over and refused to assist, well no prob, carried on round and put the guy alongside Petrol Station.
Slipped then he waved us back, 'heres a drink chaps'...200 euros. Ta.
Definitely no motor boat gloating, driven a few myself on E for Enough!
Romeo
Well-Known Member
I would always help folk out if they were on board their boat and needed help, without a though of salvage BUT
If I found an unmanned boat and towed it to a secure mooring, I would expect the boats insurers to thank me handsomely for my efforts. A real situation recently near me.
If I found an unmanned boat and towed it to a secure mooring, I would expect the boats insurers to thank me handsomely for my efforts. A real situation recently near me.
Quandary
Well-Known Member
I towed a speedboat in once, nice young couple with zero experience and knowledge, they had called the coastguard to report a breakdown and I could see them drifting, it was a lovely day and I was on my way home anyway. The coastguard asked where we were taking them and I told them not to worry, we had it under control but they insisted on having our destination and ETA. When we got in there was a blue van waiting with two guys in blue jumpers, classic good cop/bad cop. I was impressed with the direct language used in the roasting they got from the fat one, the lad was red faced and the girl was in tears. After about 5 mins we cleared off but it lasted another 15.
So if you are negotiating a salvage agreement it should be worth more if you agree not to tell the coastguard where you are going.
So if you are negotiating a salvage agreement it should be worth more if you agree not to tell the coastguard where you are going.
sighmoon
Well-Known Member
I'd never turn down an offer of dinner, even if I'd just eaten. Other than that, unless I'd donated a vital organ, I wouldn't want a reward for saving someone's life.
As per salvage, who pays it; the distressed owner, or the insurance company? It's one thing demanding money from an appreciative fellow mariner, but quite another accepting what a bean counter at his insurance company reckons is your due.
As others have said, I don't think a casual tow counts as salvage anyway.
As per salvage, who pays it; the distressed owner, or the insurance company? It's one thing demanding money from an appreciative fellow mariner, but quite another accepting what a bean counter at his insurance company reckons is your due.
As others have said, I don't think a casual tow counts as salvage anyway.
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dunmor
Well-Known Member
ive towed 2 boats out of trouble, first time the boat got damaged, the second
the missus got her hand badley broken. we got no thanks from the boats we towed. would we do it again, i would certainly think twice about it.
the missus got her hand badley broken. we got no thanks from the boats we towed. would we do it again, i would certainly think twice about it.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Here's a US article on the subject :
The genesis of the laws stems from an 1869 U.S. Supreme Court case about the British cargo ship The Blackwall.
Thanks to that case, salvors are entitled to payment for saving vessels, a gesture to encourage people to help boats in peril and return them to their owners, said Miami admiralty attorney Michael Karcher.
Today, a salvage award is based on several factors, including the post-casualty value of the vessel and the nature and degree of danger. A normal award can be 15 to 20 percent of the value of the boat.
La Bella 2 owner Joe Jacoboni said he offered the towing company $15,000 for its efforts, but the men requested $400,000. Because he won’t pay that, the company has sued him, asking for $1 million, he said.
Part of the problem, Canavan and Jacoboni said, is that in an emergency, everyone is under pressure to minimize the damage. When you are offered help – whether you need it or not – you take it.
“We let them [help us],” Jacoboni said, “not knowing what the ramifications were.”
The ramifications are that if a boater accepts help voluntarily given – meaning there is no existing contract – and the boat is saved from peril, the salvor is entitled to compensation.
Debate often arises over the definition of peril, which can be slight, Karcher said. An award is based on the degree of peril. If the parties cannot decide what that is, a judge will.
“It goes on all over the world,” Karcher said. “A lot of this we inherited from the English but salvage law is largely universal.”
Salvage companies fill an important need in a boater’s life. Like mini fire departments – though manned and equipped at their own expense – they are prepared to respond to any emergency. Then they sit and wait for that emergency.
“The equipment we need to do that service is expensive” said Tina Cardone, who handles public relations for TowBoatUS Fort Lauderdale. “It only gets used when that happens, and that doesn’t happen very often.” TowBoatUS was not the company that boarded La Bella 2.
“The problem comes in when boaters are being salvaged but not told,” Cardone said. “What [a tow company is] supposed to do is say, ‘Mr. So-and-so, this is a salvage, and there will be an insurance claim. Do you accept my services?’ If the answer is no, we’ll get our people off. But if we’re going to save the boat, it’s going to cost [them] some money.”
If the salvor says “Will you take a Lloyd’s open form?” or a “no-cure/no-pay agreement,” be aware that that’s a salvage form, said Mark Ercolin, a maritime lawyer in Fort Lauderdale.
“I’ve talked to everybody about this, and nobody, nobody, knows what these guys can do,” Canavan said.
“The laws need to be changed,” Jacoboni said.
The yachting industry, under a barrage of new regulations since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, is resistant to more regulations.
“It’s more an educational issue than anything else,” Karcher said. “Once the owner and the captain know exactly what they’re getting into, they can make informed decisions, especially when it’s a less-than-perilous situation.”
Jacoboni said he’ll never get in that situation again.
“This has driven me out of the yachting industry forever,” he said. “I’ll never own another yacht.”
His advice: If your boat is sinking and life is in jeopardy, accept any help to save people first and the boat second. If your boat isn’t in peril and you have any other alternatives, take those alternatives.
“Until the laws are changed, don’t take help from these guys,” he said. “They know how to orchestrate the situation to put themselves in the best legal position they can be in. They know all the rules and laws and you don’t.”
E-mail comments to Editor Lucy Reed at lucy@the-triton.com.
Salvage laws come from 135-year-old British cargo ship case
SALVAGE, from page 1
The genesis of the laws stems from an 1869 U.S. Supreme Court case about the British cargo ship The Blackwall.
Thanks to that case, salvors are entitled to payment for saving vessels, a gesture to encourage people to help boats in peril and return them to their owners, said Miami admiralty attorney Michael Karcher.
Today, a salvage award is based on several factors, including the post-casualty value of the vessel and the nature and degree of danger. A normal award can be 15 to 20 percent of the value of the boat.
La Bella 2 owner Joe Jacoboni said he offered the towing company $15,000 for its efforts, but the men requested $400,000. Because he won’t pay that, the company has sued him, asking for $1 million, he said.
Part of the problem, Canavan and Jacoboni said, is that in an emergency, everyone is under pressure to minimize the damage. When you are offered help – whether you need it or not – you take it.
“We let them [help us],” Jacoboni said, “not knowing what the ramifications were.”
The ramifications are that if a boater accepts help voluntarily given – meaning there is no existing contract – and the boat is saved from peril, the salvor is entitled to compensation.
Debate often arises over the definition of peril, which can be slight, Karcher said. An award is based on the degree of peril. If the parties cannot decide what that is, a judge will.
“It goes on all over the world,” Karcher said. “A lot of this we inherited from the English but salvage law is largely universal.”
Salvage companies fill an important need in a boater’s life. Like mini fire departments – though manned and equipped at their own expense – they are prepared to respond to any emergency. Then they sit and wait for that emergency.
“The equipment we need to do that service is expensive” said Tina Cardone, who handles public relations for TowBoatUS Fort Lauderdale. “It only gets used when that happens, and that doesn’t happen very often.” TowBoatUS was not the company that boarded La Bella 2.
“The problem comes in when boaters are being salvaged but not told,” Cardone said. “What [a tow company is] supposed to do is say, ‘Mr. So-and-so, this is a salvage, and there will be an insurance claim. Do you accept my services?’ If the answer is no, we’ll get our people off. But if we’re going to save the boat, it’s going to cost [them] some money.”
If the salvor says “Will you take a Lloyd’s open form?” or a “no-cure/no-pay agreement,” be aware that that’s a salvage form, said Mark Ercolin, a maritime lawyer in Fort Lauderdale.
“I’ve talked to everybody about this, and nobody, nobody, knows what these guys can do,” Canavan said.
“The laws need to be changed,” Jacoboni said.
The yachting industry, under a barrage of new regulations since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, is resistant to more regulations.
“It’s more an educational issue than anything else,” Karcher said. “Once the owner and the captain know exactly what they’re getting into, they can make informed decisions, especially when it’s a less-than-perilous situation.”
Jacoboni said he’ll never get in that situation again.
“This has driven me out of the yachting industry forever,” he said. “I’ll never own another yacht.”
His advice: If your boat is sinking and life is in jeopardy, accept any help to save people first and the boat second. If your boat isn’t in peril and you have any other alternatives, take those alternatives.
“Until the laws are changed, don’t take help from these guys,” he said. “They know how to orchestrate the situation to put themselves in the best legal position they can be in. They know all the rules and laws and you don’t.”
E-mail comments to Editor Lucy Reed at lucy@the-triton.com.
Salvage laws come from 135-year-old British cargo ship case
SALVAGE, from page 1