Wooden or not? How to decide?

[Petronella]

Well, it's time to stop lurking and start asking questions. Within a couple of years we should be in a position to spend some extended periods sailing - you know…mortgage paid, children flown and no reason to wait longer than necessary. We've done some sailing in Scotland and the Solent, a bit of flotilla sailing, some RYA courses and crewed a catamaran from the UK to Portugal but we are novices really. We want to learn whilst doing, initially in the Med and see if we might enjoy it longer term. The question is 'what to buy?' We want something sturdy, heavy displacement, around 35', secondhand, reliable and with a bit of character - equivalent, I guess, to our trusty 1972 Landrover that took us through Africa at a top speed of 40mph! My heart tells me wooden but my head tells me not. I like the look of the 12 ton Hillyards but really we know nothing about what to look for. We'll have around £35,000 to spend so what would you do in our situation, and why? What are the key considerations? How much extra work is involved with a decent wooden boat compared with a plastic one and can you really keep them dry below?

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[chippie]

I cant advise on any specific boats but would suggest that wood is viable if you like the process of looking after a wooden boat. If you see all those little jobs as an enjoyable time filler while at anchorage on a cruise you are on the right track.
If that sort of thing is a burden that you can never quite get done, then another material is probably better. All boats need their major maintenance, eg antifoul, repaint etc but glass boats, in my view, can prevent deferred maintenance becoming terminal. If a glass boat hasnt got the pox , it is a pretty long lived animal even if cosmetically neglected. Rigging etc. ages much the same on all boats .
I've been on quite a few wooden boats that werent wet below..

Good luck with the hunt and purchase, whatever you decide.



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[hillyarder]

we,ve got a 9 tonner and shes as dry as a bone. we knew absolutely nothing about wooden boats, we knew little about any boats in fact. we bought our hillyard because we got more boat for our money for a family of five. i am a teacher of history and not by any means a skilled woodworker but common sense and a willingness to learn and some elbow grease keep our boat pretty and in good sailing order. it takes less time to paint my boat than it does the chap next door to polish his.

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[Peterduck]

I would agree with both Chippie and Hillyarder. My 1917 ketch takes very little or no water from the sea, and none from the sky. Being an ex-fishing boat, it is very stable and stiff [you'd never be able to work on a racer] and has a comfortable motion which gives confidence to hesitant. You'll definitely get more boat for your quid with a wooden boat, and the older ones tend to have simpler systems and galvanised rigging, all of which are cheaper and easier to look after. As you have a bit of time before you want to commit yourselves, use the time to do your homework; read everything that you can get your hands on to, and also try to get sails on boats that you think that you could like. In fairness try both modern and older to see which you like best. The more informed you are [and this process is never complete; you never stop learning] the better will be your choice. You will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff before you go to the expense of retaining a surveyor to check your final choice.
Peter.

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[Mirelle]

Strictly head, not heart...

Pretty much any boat within your (quite adequate) budget will require some repairs, replacements and renewals. Below decks, things like the wiring, batteries, engine, plumbing, berth and seat cushions may need major overhauls or outright replacement - plus, of course, the engine itself. And almost certainly the electonic navigation equipment will be either defunct or at best out of date.

On deck, the standing and running rigging, fenders, warps, dinghy, covers (very important in the Med!) winches and windlass may need looking at.

The boat's safety equipment is likely to be out of date or incomplete, and things like keel bolts and seacocks must be an absolute priority.

This is so regardless of what material the boat is built out of, but speaking very broadly a boat built to a "high spec" in the first place will have fittings and gear that will last longer.

Oddly enough this means that a boat built some time ago may have all these things in better order than a boat built just a few years ago, when new boat prices started to become more competitive, and fittings and equipment made of less durable materals started to become more widely used.

I am being deliberately vague here so as not to offend anyone, but what I am driving at is this - the material that the hull and decks are made of is actually quite a minor factor in the equation.

I have just stepped ashore from a friend's 32ft Golden Hind - a boat that would seem just about ideal for you; very much a seagoing Land Rover, which in point of fact has a GRP hull and cockpit and wood decks and coachroof thereby falling neatly between your two stools! These boats change hands at around 30K for a nice one.

My own boat was 47 years old when I bought her; she is now 67, and has cost me a fortune - almost all of which was in replacements of the sort of thing I mention above - she has needed new everything, except the spars, the WC and the steering compass, and I am still putting off the new engine (the one we have is 37 years old!). She is built of Burma teak on English oak, with pitch pine stringers and shelves; almost none of the aforementioned fortune has been spent on hull and deck repairs, since she has needed very little, and she is bone dry down below - we use down duvets and sleeping bags, which "you should never use on a boat in case they get wet!"

In point of fact, a good wooden boat, well designed and well looked after, will often stay drier than a glass one, because wooden boats, if well designed and built, are built with very careful attention to ventilation and they do no "sweat" in the way that a glass boat does.

I would start looking at boats with very careful attention to the things I have listed -really high quality equipment will last for decades, whereas cheaper equipment will fail after ten years or so. By way of some examples, a Sestrel compass, a Taylors' stove or a Blake WC will last approximately "for ever"; some other makes er, don't. So if a boat offered by a broker has this sort of equipment, it is a pretty fair guide to the rest of her gear (but you should still check, of course!)

The hull material is really quite a small item in the equation. I have two friends who are now most of the way round the world in a 32ft wooden ketch that was built in Cornwall in 1952 - she cost them Pds 11,000, plus a good deal of work, but she is perfectly safe and seaworthy.

If in doubt, go up the quality scale and down the size scale.

Hope this helps.

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[roly_voya]

Agree witheverything said but I would add that when bying a wodden boat you need to take someone ith good experience of owning on and preferable using it for a similar pupose as you are likely to miss thing either through enthusiasm or inexperience This probably more important with wood than fiberglass as a wooden boat is a complex peace of engineering. Remember almost no broackers and few survayors these days seem to really understand wood. Have fun

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[Petronella]

Excellent information from all - many thanks.

Conclusions so far:

1. A wooden boat is not out of the question for us but maybe the material is not the most important thing.
2. You get more for your money if you buy a well made and well maintained older boat.
3. Major restoration is probably not an option for us but I'm quite comfortable with the idea of minor repairs and maintenance on an ongoing basis.
4. Look for quality and simplicity - but then that's true for most things.
5. Surveyors and brokers may be hard to find for a wooden boat.

So, some follow-up questions if you don't mind.

1. What other makes fall into the Hillyard, Golden Hind (thanks Mirelle), "Land Rover" category?
2. Are there obvious things to look out for when we go looking at potential purchases or is it more a question of finding something that meets our requirements and we like at the right price and then get it surveyed?
3. Is it normal to go for sail when viewing or do you just get to look around and ask questions?
4. Are there particular surveyors that you have used and would use again and how much would I expect to pay for this type of survey?

Thanks in advance.


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[mikesharp]

I would be lying if I told you that there wasn't a lot of hard work and expense in owning an old wooden boat. Our club operates two, both Abeking and Rasmussen built in the 1930s. We are selling our smaller one at a price within your budget for the very reasons above. If you are interested in viewing send me a pm.
Some pictures at www.marabusailingclub.org.

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[Mirelle]

1. More "Land Rovers":

There are plenty, but they don't come on the market that often. "A wooden boat is not just for Christmas" - indeed, they sometimes get passed on from generation to generation in the same family!

What follows are just a few thoughts in random order.

The boat in which my two friends are now most of the way round the globe is similar to the "9 ton Falmouth Pilot" by Rodney Warrington-Smyth.

Look out for boats designed by Dr T Harrison Butler; these
have a golden reputation but some may be too small. Check the owners' association :

The Harrison Butler Association
President: Mrs Joan Jardine-Brown
2 The Chestnuts, 60 High Street
Theale, Reading, Berks Tel: 01189 302 945
Web: harrisonbutlerassociation.org

Then look at Laurent Giles' boats, esp Wanderer and Vertue classes (Vertue poss too small), Maurice Griffiths designs, Alan Buchanan designs (some are racy) Kim Holman designs eg Rummer, (again, some racy) Robert Clark designs (racy, maybe too big) Arthur Robb designs eg Lion Class, McGruer boats - well, there are loads more...

2. Read all you can. Above all, get (eg from public libary) and read, Eric Hiscock's two books "Cruising Under Sail" and "Voyaging under Sail" and likewise Ian Nicholson's "Surveying Small Craft". If you read nothing else, read these. There are hundreds of books and the more you read, the better.

Join the Cruising Association; if you are not near London go to regional meetings, if you are near London go to meetings and use the Library!

3. Trial sails are not usual, simply because most boats are sold when laid up! And they are not, in my opinion, either necessary or very helpful - you can be reasonably sure that a heavy cruiser will have Land Rover type performance!

4. Recommended surveyor

Here is one very good wooden boat specialist:

Martin Evans
Pilot's Cottage
Quay Lane
Kirby-le-Soken
Colchester
Essex
CO13 0DS

Phone: 01255 677883
Mobile: 07887 724055
Fax: 01255 677883
Email: shipshape@ntlworld.com



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[Peterduck]

I agree with all that you have said, Mirelle. I really think that Maurice Griffiths' designs are hard to beat - about as comfortable as a favourite pair of slippers. Never racy, but spacious inside for their size, and the rig always seems to be enough withot being too big.
Peter.

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[Mirelle]

Thanks, Peter.

I agree, and should have made it clear that the Golden Hind is a Maurice Griffiths design! At one time it held the record for the largest number of Atlantic crossings made by a single design. That was before "ARC", of course.

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[Frithcot]

Thanks for your question and the replies. I too am looking forwards to buying a sound safe and stiff family boat but find white plastic very unappealing. Hillyards look and read as if they meet that challenge. I so nearly had a Golden Hind passed down to me but because of Spanish inheritance laws regretably it was not to be as it was a lovely boat.

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[trouville]

i have a 12 ton hillyard its dry below, the only leak was form the port lights(which plastic boats dont have to let air in) im in the med and paint once a year top and bottom, dont use galanised rigging etc its a pain even if you oil it ( you have to find an old container heat old smelly oil and leave the gavanised cable overnight to impregnate the inner "string") and bottel screws need greasing and grease you before seizing anyway( its not quite so bad). Ive changed to stainless for rigging, wooden boats look tatty mid season but a day or twos light work beats three days oor more polishing with expensive polish and plastic looks dull after about the first 4 5 years and picks up dirt wood only has advantages. If you get a hillyard check the stem for rot and damage

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[trouville]

oh yes and dont forget to tap the fittings they should "ding" the wood shouldent be to soft around them and check the anodes make sure they have backing wood and havent softened the hull, check the heads and lookat the bilge pump check the wood around that as well

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[Petronella]

Thanks again Mirelle but how come some of these have bilge keels? I had expected all long deep fin keels for maximum stability.

Obviously still some way to go!

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[Mirelle]

The Golden Hind has bilge keels as well as a long deep central keel; in terms of wetted surface this is a stinker, so they are not exactly ocean greyhounds, but I can assure you these boats handle like a long keeled boat. Some Hillyards have the same system - same applies.

Not the same thing as a twin keeled boat like say a Westerly Centaur, which has no long deep central keel.

Another Griffiths design that you might look out for - towards upper end of budget, perhaps - is the Good Hope; 38ft, usually a centre cockpit ketch, more rarely a cutter; many an ocean crossed in those.

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[Jeremy_W]

.... Robert Clark designs (racy, maybe too big)...

3. Trial sails are not usual, simply because most boats are sold when laid up! And they are not, in my opinion, either necessary or very helpful - you can be reasonably sure that a heavy cruiser will have Land Rover type performance!
######
I'd certainly sail a Robert Clark design before buying anything from this designer. They're awesome to windward (as you'd expect from a designer who scored 1st, 2nd, 1st, 4th in the first 4 OSTAR's) but the very narrow sterns mean they can be a little hard to handle downwind. Try before you buy.

I sailed 1,000+ miles in Rally Portugal 1997 on a Clark design and loved it but downwind was high-concentration stuff.

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[Mirelle]

Going downhill

Thanks for that, Jeremy.

On the same point, I know a drop dead gorgeous S&S yawl, superbly built, which is an utter cow, downwind!

I suspect this may be a generic weakness of "late" wooden boat designs aimed at racing, with the rudder attached to a short, deep, keel.

I think I have seen a discussion of this, somewhere, possibly by Francis Kinney, possibly by Olin Stephens himself, concerning the desirability of separating the rudder from the fin and mounting it on a separate skeg, further aft, in order to increase the turning couple and increase stability.

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[Dek]

I have owned a 13 ton Hillyard for 7 years and have more time maintaining her than sailing (and a not inconsiderable amount of money). She is now ready (well almost) for long term liveaboard cruising. It is right that you will be forever carrying out some maintenance task, which is true of all boats but old wooden ones frequently test your love and patience. Having said that I would rather be in my Hillyard in a force 6 and upwards than in some yoghurt pots that seem to be more related to water borne caravans than boats. (I won't mention any names - I dont' want to get into a row!!)
As said I have spent much cash getting my Hillyard ready to live and cruise on. If you decide a Hillyard is for you please let me have your email address and I would be glad to offer the benefit of my mistakes! (Hillyard Owners Club is also a good source of information)
Good Luck and happy hunting.

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[Peterduck]

Like you, Dek, I have spent more time and money on my old ketch than most people would want to think about. However, I have a different mindset. I enjoy the process of solving problems [e.g. why is the engine overheating?] and fashioning new items for her. I have often said to others in my club that I can enjoy my boat without even taking her out of the pen. I think that anyone who imagines that they will come to the end of working on a boat is doomed to disappointment, and in this respect it doesn't matter what the boat is built from. The boat won't stop requiring attention, so it is best to change your mental approach.
Peter.

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