Wiring to a generator ( Water Maker)

[jrudge]

I am installing a water maker and intend to connect it to the generator - so it will only work when the generator is running.

This is good for me as

a. I cannot see a time i would run the WM when the gen was not running other than initial installation

b. it happens to make install simpler as the gen is right next to the proposed water maker position. The alternative would be running new wires to the helm panel which serves little purpose.

I have bought a small consumer unit ( water proof) with a breaker for the water maker, another for the feed pump and an RCD.

I was prompted by the Galvanic Isolator thread which mentioned connecting Neutral and Earth together before the RCD in a generator install to make sure it trips.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-431165.html

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-136988.html

http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=24199


A search on google - including the links above - are very split on this issue.

Roughly half say you must be mad to do that - and if there is a leak the RCD will trigger, the other half say you must be mad not to and the RCD will not trigger without.

So a score draw.

From my point of view I cannot see the point of connecting the two.

The Generator I assume ( Onan in a Squadron 58 2004 ) is probably not earthed anyway unless to the P Bracket ( and I can check this whilst on board) and the RCD works based on current imbalance - so it current "goes missing" it will trip.

If it is earthed then I will run three wires - Earth - Neutral - Live to the RCD.

I am also assuming that there is no impact on galvanic isolation by tapping into a generator feed?

As always answers on a postcard, and I hope the score is not an even 50/50!

Merry Christmas to you all

 

[Hurricane]

I've been looking at doing exactly the same.
Perhaps something nicer than a consumer unit but a box containing an RCD.

This is the Princess wiring of our installation - shows how the generator is connected.
Note the earths are shown separate to the neutrals - the earth is probably connected to the neutral inside the generator.

The above is the wiring diagram for the 240v panel located in the lazerette.
The terminals marked 959 through to 962 are fed through the boat to (what I call the electronics bay) under the lower helm. The earths are also fed to these terminals.

This is a pic of the terminals in the electronics bay.

If I go ahead with a watermaker installation, it will be located in the front of the boat reasonably close to these terminals.
So, (like you) I was thinking of feeding an RCD from these terminals and wiring the earth to the adjacent earth terminals.
And NOT joining the RCD neutral to the earth.

I would have expected a Fairline installation to be similar.

Hope this helps, If that was your question.

EDIT
With a solution like this, you could run the watermaker off generator or shore power.

 

[Portofino]

What’s the problem with a 12/ 24 V powered water maker ? Guys —- what I,am I missing here ?
Seasonal greetings chaps

 

[MapisM]

I cannot see a time i would run the WM when the gen was not running

Why? Is the water particularly dirty in your marina, or is it forbidden to run a wm, or what?
I'm only going to install a water softener because that's more than good enough for my needs, but if I would have a wm, I sure would want to use it also to refill tanks while docked...

That aside, I agree with Hurricane suggestions.

 

[MapisM]

What’s the problem with a 12/ 24 V powered water maker ? Guys —- what I,am I missing here ?

I never investigated the alternative for WMs specifically, but generally speaking of any serious electrical bit of kit, whenever given a choice between AC and DC, I struggle to think of anything which works better with the latter than with the first, in principle.
And if the current draw is high enough (as I guess it is) to require keeping the battery charger running, hence also the genset, you're back to square one, I reckon.

 

[jrudge]

Why? Is the water particularly dirty in your marina, or is it forbidden to run a wm, or what?
I'm only going to install a water softener because that's more than good enough for my needs, but if I would have a wm, I sure would want to use it also to refill tanks while docked...

That aside, I agree with Hurricane suggestions.

You have shore water and running in a marina clogs the filters really quickly.

 

[jrudge]

I never investigated the alternative for WMs specifically, but generally speaking of any serious electrical bit of kit, whenever given a choice between AC and DC, I struggle to think of anything which works better with the latter than with the first, in principle.
And if the current draw is high enough (as I guess it is) to require keeping the battery charger running, hence also the genset, you're back to square one, I reckon.

Making water takes pressure. And pressure takes hi power pumps. In a word capacity.

 

[Hurricane]

What’s the problem with a 12/ 24 V powered water maker ? Guys —- what I,am I missing here ?
Seasonal greetings chaps

Been there - thought of that - long and hard.
It got close but the final deciding factor was the price.
DC and AC water makers are roughly the same price.

The big disadvantage with DC is the throughput - generally they produce less water for the same money.
I looked closely at the ckark design of DC water makers - and I really like them - recovering energy etc.
But I am thinking about my whole strategy of power on the boat whilst away at anchor.
The best option that I considered for DC was a two stage device (dual pumps).
I was hoping that just running a single stage would enable me to make water from the energy left over from my solar panels after they had charged the batteries.
But thinking about it carefully, in this situation, the solar panels would have struggled.
This year has shown that I have now got it right - I can stay away from marinas for long periods without damaging my batteries.
If we were to choose a DC water maker, the reality is that we would really only have made water whilst the generator is running anyway.
The idea being that during the time that the generator was running, we could then run the water maker with both stages enabled.
A huge drawback here is that the water maker would then be driven off the battery charger - at a time when we most wanted the battery charger to charge the batteries.
This would then mean more time that the generator has to run to do its job - thus defeating my whole energy concept whilst at anchor.

So, why bother with all this stuff and just run the generator whenever you need water.
And as I say, the cost was much the same for DC vs AC

Also, electrically, an AC system will be much easier to install - smaller wires etc.

As I say, my research came "full circle".
I like the idea of a DC system but for the same money, you get more water over the same period of time from an AC water maker.
I'm sure that some will disagree but this is the solution I came to.

However, the 64,000 dollar question is - do we ACTUALLY need a water maker anyway?
The reality again is - probably not.
We have managed for 10 years now without one and really only missed it three times.
There are other parameters that could change this though - water in the south of Mallorca is carp.
If we plan to go to more places like that, a water maker would be necessary - just for good clean water.
At Sant Carles and the North side of the islands the water is very drinkable (even took water from Formentera last summer and that was fine too).
So, really, I can't justify one at the moment.
But I still keep thinking so maybe it will happen ------ sometime.

 

[MapisM]

You have shore water and running in a marina clogs the filters really quickly.

Yup, I can see that in some marinas seawater can clog filters fasr - in fact I did ask if that was a reason.
But in most if not all cases, shore water is nowhere near as good as fresh water produced by a WM.
Chalk and cheese spring to mind...

 

[Hurricane]

Making water takes pressure. And pressure takes hi power pumps. In a word capacity.

That isn't "strictly" true.
These ckark pumps do create the high pressure you are referring to but using low pressure techniques.
They don't use HP piston pumps - the pressure required for the membranes is developed using differential piston system which (they say) recovers the energy.
And they are much quieter.
I really like them.
But, as I say above, all things considered IMO it is best to go with the conventional high pressure system.

 

[Hurricane]

Yup, I can see that in some marinas seawater can clog filters fasr - in fact I did ask if that was a reason.
But in most if not all cases, shore water is nowhere near as good as fresh water produced by a WM.
Chalk and cheese spring to mind...

As far as I understand, running a water maker in any marina is a complete no no.
You would probably get away with it in CF - where the water is lovely.
But in SC for example, we have excessive marine growth and in (say) Alcudia and Cala D'Or, there is all kinds of stuff floating in the marina - not to mention the stuff actually IN the water.

 

[MapisM]

However, the 64,000 dollar question is - do we ACTUALLY need a water maker anyway?
The reality again is - probably not.
We have managed for 10 years now without one and really only missed it three times.

Amen to all that.
If you replace 10 years with 17 and three times with never, you get exactly the picture of my own experience - and mind, before moving to CF we cruised the HR archipelago for years, often staying out for more than a week in a row.
Sure, you have to be a bit careful and avoid wasting water, but any guests who don't understand these boating basics can as well stay ashore, 'fiuaskme...

 

[MapisM]

As far as I understand, running a water maker in any marina is a complete no no.
You would probably get away with it in CF - where the water is lovely.
But in SC for example, we have excessive marine growth and in (say) Alcudia and Cala D'Or, there is all kinds of stuff floating in the marina - not to mention the stuff actually IN the water.

Good point - indeed having spent several weeks this last summer in the N Adriatic, I realized how spoilt I am by the water which is surrounding us in the old lady as I'm writing!
Though I can think of several other marinas around Sardinia, and also in mainland southern IT, where I don't think it would be a big deal to run a WM while docked...

 

[jrudge]

Personally yes I do. Water is the main limiting issue to avoiding Marinas

 

[ARE]

I am installing a water maker and intend to connect it to the generator - so it will only work when the generator is running.

This is good for me as

a. I cannot see a time i would run the WM when the gen was not running other than initial installation

b. it happens to make install simpler as the gen is right next to the proposed water maker position. The alternative would be running new wires to the helm panel which serves little purpose.

I have bought a small consumer unit ( water proof) with a breaker for the water maker, another for the feed pump and an RCD.

I was prompted by the Galvanic Isolator thread which mentioned connecting Neutral and Earth together before the RCD in a generator install to make sure it trips.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-431165.html

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-136988.html

http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=24199


A search on google - including the links above - are very split on this issue.

Roughly half say you must be mad to do that - and if there is a leak the RCD will trigger, the other half say you must be mad not to and the RCD will not trigger without.

So a score draw.

From my point of view I cannot see the point of connecting the two.

The Generator I assume ( Onan in a Squadron 58 2004 ) is probably not earthed anyway unless to the P Bracket ( and I can check this whilst on board) and the RCD works based on current imbalance - so it current "goes missing" it will trip.

If it is earthed then I will run three wires - Earth - Neutral - Live to the RCD.

I am also assuming that there is no impact on galvanic isolation by tapping into a generator feed?

As always answers on a postcard, and I hope the score is not an even 50/50!

Merry Christmas to you all

Fairline and all major European boat builders join the neutral and earth together in the generators. Yours should already have the link in.

 

[Portofino]

Personally yes I do. Water is the main limiting issue to avoiding Marinas

Yes ,I,know what you mean .Running out of water = marina berth
Our last boat had 150;L tank it would last a family of 4 - 2/3 days in the summer Med - then we would need a marina night .
This boat has a 500 L tank and ironically now the kids have flown the nest ( save odd summer visits ) we find the 500 L between just the two of use lasts ages .Easily 5 days +++ .
Not sure how those Dashews managed on 5L / pax / day ?
This brings me round to if we ever wanted real extended stays away from marinas - then why not simply fit a reserve tank in a cock pit locker ( or where ever ? ) higher than the boats main tank and fill up before the “ adventure/ expedition “ .
Then when applicable open a valve and let it top up the boat main .
What can go wrong with that .?
For us another 500 L is 1/2 cubic M , so that much bigger size wise - to make 1000 L when added - - between two of us if my man maths are correct

Just save all the potential hassle and expense of fittings a WM and working out how to power it up - for those “3 days “ that Hurricane mentions every now and again .

 

[Nigelpickin]

With the two of us, we use at least 300 litres per day - a watermake has long been a must get item and we are really enjoying using it; now that we have one.
Works well on either 12v of 220v so best of both worlds and as the 525 ltr tank takes around 4 hours to fill, we will use it mostly through the 12v system - (solar providing).

The fact that the water is drinkable is a real bonus.

 

[Hurricane]

Yes ,I,know what you mean .Running out of water = marina berth
Our last boat had 150;L tank it would last a family of 4 - 2/3 days in the summer Med - then we would need a marina night .
This boat has a 500 L tank and ironically now the kids have flown the nest ( save odd summer visits ) we find the 500 L between just the two of use lasts ages .Easily 5 days +++ .
Not sure how those Dashews managed on 5L / pax / day ?
This brings me round to if we ever wanted real extended stays away from marinas - then why not simply fit a reserve tank in a cock pit locker ( or where ever ? ) higher than the boats main tank and fill up before the “ adventure/ expedition “ .
Then when applicable open a valve and let it top up the boat main .
What can go wrong with that .?
For us another 500 L is 1/2 cubic M , so that much bigger size wise - to make 1000 L when added - - between two of us if my man maths are correct

Just save all the potential hassle and expense of fittings a WM and working out how to power it up - for those “3 days “ that Hurricane mentions every now and again .

We have 1000 litres which lasts SWMBO and I, 7 to 10 days.
With visitors, we can often run out in 3 or 4 days.
That all may change now that we have new Planus toilets.
Apparently, the new toilets use twice the amount of water as the old vac units.

You don't need to berth to get water.
We fill up at the fuel stations.
Usually when we refuel.
But a couple of times, we have had to go in - just for water.
Santa Ponsa has a water machine - takes 1 euro coins. It was broken last summer but the guy who manages the fuel berth gave us some water - obviously earning a tip!!.
Other marinas charge a fee to berth during the day for a couple of hours - during that time you can take as much water as you like so we often take the opportunity to wash the boat at the same time.

 

[Portofino]

We have 1000 litres which lasts SWMBO and I, 7 to 10 days.
With visitors, we can often run out in 3 or 4 days.
That all may change now that we have new Planus toilets.
Apparently, the new toilets use twice the amount of water as the old vac units.

You don't need to berth to get water.
We fill up at the fuel stations.
Usually when we refuel.
But a couple of times, we have had to go in - just for water.
Santa Ponsa has a water machine - takes 1 euro coins. It was broken last summer but the guy who manages the fuel berth gave us some water - obviously earning a tip!!.
Other marinas charge a fee to berth during the day for a couple of hours - during that time you can take as much water as you like so we often take the opportunity to wash the boat at the same time.

Yes we have done what I call a “smash n grab “ whereby we just gate crash an empty berth , ( pretend we are booking in - not sure re visitors pontoon is etc )) - just fill up as much time wise as we dare then 8ugger of off .

I had a social conscience once - before you all berate me .

Hear this - On tour in August high season in the SoF , running out of water ( in the 150L Sunseeker ) two kids in tow .
Pulled into Hyres marina for diesel , tied up guy placed the pumphandle , asked how much 600L I said .
Started filling . I asked seeing the hose neatly coiled up - if I could top up with water while the diesel was flowing ,he said no !
Ok - I then asked how much is the water - he said it’s forbidden - water shortage etc - Oh - Ok I thought !!
Diesel tank took 30 mins to fill ,so he 8uggers off with the handle in the latch .
Meanwhile a Fr guy turns up in his car parked next to the coiled up water hose and proceed to wash his car while the 4 of us watched .To rub salt into the wounds his phone rings and he drops the hose on full bore on the floor wasting water — argh .

From that day those Fr ( inserts your phase ) owe me and I have no qualms taking there water .

Of course these days in the present boat we seem Ok .
But I have no hesitation to do a smash n grab in Fr marinas in the future if necessary :encouragement:

 

[Hurricane]

Yes we have done what I call a “smash n grab “ whereby we just gate crash an empty berth , ( pretend we are booking in - not sure re visitors pontoon is etc )) - just fill up as much time wise as we dare then 8ugger of off .

I had a social conscience once - before you all berate me .

Hear this - On tour in August high season in the SoF , running out of water ( in the 150L Sunseeker ) two kids in tow .
Pulled into Hyres marina for diesel , tied up guy placed the pumphandle , asked how much 600L I said .
Started filling . I asked seeing the hose neatly coiled up - if I could top up with water while the diesel was flowing ,he said no !
Ok - I then asked how much is the water - he said it’s forbidden - water shortage etc - Oh - Ok I thought !!
Diesel tank took 30 mins to fill ,so he 8uggers off with the handle in the latch .
Meanwhile a Fr guy turns up in his car parked next to the coiled up water hose and proceed to wash his car while the 4 of us watched .To rub salt into the wounds his phone rings and he drops the hose on full bore on the floor wasting water — argh .

From that day those Fr ( inserts your phase ) owe me and I have no qualms taking there water .

Of course these days in the present boat we seem Ok .
But I have no hesitation to do a smash n grab in Fr marinas in the future if necessary :encouragement:

Yep
I would have no conscience as far as Hyres is concerned.
We were delivering Whitelighter's Feretti a couple of years ago and pulled in there.
After filling the boat with fuel, were were told to go - no space they said.
I'm sure there was space.
We were actually waiting for Whitelighter himself to arrive by train so I asked where we could go.
The answer was pointed out to us - The Porquerolles.
I said "and how will tge train get there?"
Just a shrug of the shoulders is all I got so we had to leave - we chose Toulon instead.
So to recap, I would have no conscience taking water from Hyres._