Windlass and increasing anchor spec

[gasdave]

Yes - an anchor thread! But this is more about the windlass...

My 37' approx. 7 tonne boat came with a copy 15kg CQR on 50m 8mm chain. I am considering replacing my anchor with a Delta but going up a size to 20kg.

My windlass is a Quick Genius 1000. The spec for this gives a max. working load of 350kg and max. pull of 900kg.

Am I correct in thinking I should have no concerns about any effect of the proposed increased anchor weight on the windlass' ability to raise it? I don't particularly want to have to beef up the windlass just for this.

Thanks again and sorry if this is a silly question!

 

[coopec]

My logic tells me
1. The 20kg anchor won't weigh 20kg when immersed in water.
2. Since the windlass can pull 900kg(?) the increased weight of the anchor will be of no consequence.
3. I have read when they recommend sizes of anchors for yachts they consider the wind is around 30 knots.

[B]Determine Your Holding Power Needs[/B]
Be sure that your anchor can give the performance you need. A "Lunch Hook" should be able to hold your boat in a 15 knot breeze. A main, or "Working Anchor" should hold up to 30 knots of wind. A "Storm Anchor" is for winds up to 42 knots. Remember that as the wind speed doubles, the holding requirement quadruples!

http://fortressanchors.com/resources/safe-anchoring-guide

 

[thinwater]

You can do a LOT better than Delta. In fact, any of the new generation 15kg anchors would perform at least as well as a 20kg Delta. So either 15 or 20kg Spade, Mason, or similar. Not much point in changing from outdated to less outdated.

 

[GHA]

Am I correct in thinking I should have no concerns about ten, any effect of the proposed increased anchor weight on the windlass' ability to raise it?

Yes, barely noticeable if at all.
And echo thinwater, deltas aren't that great, there are better available.

 

[coopec]

Gasdave

I'm completely bewildered

Genius 1000 Horizontal Windlass Features
Model Genius 1000
Motor power 800 W
Motor supply voltage 12 V
Maximum pull 900 Kg
Maximum working load 350 Kg
Working load 120 Kg
Current absorption @ working load 65 A
Maximum chain speed 30,3 m/min
Maximum chain speed @ working load 19,2 m/min
Chain size DIN 766 / 8 mm - 5/16" DIN 766
Rope size 5/8"
Deck thickness 20 40 mm

If the maximum working load is 350KG how can the maximum pulling load be 900KG?
This will worry me until I find out!

Clive

 

[vyv_cox]

350 kg is a big pull. In the days before I had a windlass I used to haul a 16 kg Delta with 8 mm chain by hand. In winds to F6 I could manage to pull the boat forwards, even without engine assistance. I doubt very much that I can pull anywhere near 350 kg. Provided you are not trying to pull the boat to the anchor without giving it some engine assistance I doubt very much that you will need to uprate.

Not wishing to start an anchor argument, I used a Delta throughout UK, North Sea and Breton waters for many years (25?) and it never dragged or let me down. Only when I anchored in soft mud did I have a problem and changed to a Rocna. I believe the tests that tell me how much better the holding power of a Rocna is than that of a Delta, but we are talking about the difference between 1 and 2 tonnes for a 15/16 kg anchor, probably not all that relevant. Considering that a Delta costs about a quarter of the price of a Rocna in UK it is a good choice for average use. Don't be tempted to buy one of the many copies, they are universally poor.

 

[NormanS]

Yes - an anchor thread! But this is more about the windlass...

My 37' approx. 7 tonne boat came with a copy 15kg CQR on 50m 8mm chain. I am considering replacing my anchor with a Delta but going up a size to 20kg.

My windlass is a Quick Genius 1000. The spec for this gives a max. working load of 350kg and max. pull of 900kg.

Am I correct in thinking I should have no concerns about any effect of the proposed increased anchor weight on the windlass' ability to raise it? I don't particularly want to have to beef up the windlass just for this.

Thanks again and sorry if this is a silly question!

I am definitely not getting involved in debates regarding the attributes of different anchors, but regarding the windlass, the difference between a 15kg anchor and a 20kg anchor is still just 5kg, and will have absolutely no effect on the windlass.

 

[gasdave]

Thank you, all so far.

Yes, I too have read many of the reports describing the relative differences in performance of the newer generation anchors compared with others, including the Delta. In my ideal world where I'm spending a lot more time aboard, and therefore on anchor, I would upgrade to something like a Rocna. However I used a Delta with no problems on my previous boat and I believe it's the best of the "previous" generation and at something around a third of the cost I think it represents better value for my expected requirements just now. I also carry an FX23 Fortress.
The "logic" behind my question was based on expected difference in holding power between 15kg copy CQR and 20kg Delta. This would be based on (1) increased weight of anchor and (2) increased surface area of buried anchor (probably more important). Increased holding power would require increased pulling power from windlass to release.
Interestingly I now note the 20kg Delta recommendations are for 10mm chain, so following this through would require a windlass, or at least gypsy, change anyway!! Now I'm thinking 16kg Delta...

 

[macd]

Interestingly I now note the 20kg Delta recommendations are for 10mm chain, so following this through would require a windlass, or at least gypsy, change anyway!! Now I'm thinking 16kg Delta...

You'll find plenty of informed comments on here that the gauge of chain makes little or no difference to holding in strong winds, although many advocate using higher grade chain if opting for smaller, purely for safe working loads.

 

[lw395]

A 20kg modern anchor that digs in well might very possibly need a lot more force to uproot it than a CQR.
Particularly a 'copy' cqr, some of those are not that great.
But 350kg is a lot!

I guess the max pull of 900kg is a very short term near-stalling load?
Or is it a static pull, using the windlass as a bollard?

 

[RichardS]

Gasdave

I'm completely bewildered

Genius 1000 Horizontal Windlass Features
Model Genius 1000
Motor power 800 W
Motor supply voltage 12 V
Maximum pull 900 Kg
Maximum working load 350 Kg
Working load 120 Kg
Current absorption @ working load 65 A
Maximum chain speed 30,3 m/min
Maximum chain speed @ working load 19,2 m/min
Chain size DIN 766 / 8 mm - 5/16" DIN 766
Rope size 5/8"
Deck thickness 20 40 mm

If the maximum working load is 350KG how can the maximum pulling load be 900KG?
This will worry me until I find out!

Clive

That's normal for load bearing devices.

The maximum is what the device can do for a short period but is not specified to pull that load on a regular working basis. The working load maximum is the most that the device should be subjected to on a regular operational basis and is always lower than the the one-off maximum.

Richard

 

[neil1967]

I wouldn't have thought it would make any difference. The windlass plays no part in holding the boat at anchor as you're supposed to use a snubber to a) reduce the shock loading and b) remove the strain from the windlass. When retrieving the anchor the normal method is to motor towards the anchor and so the windlass just pulls up the chain from the seabed, so the only load is the weight of the chain hanging between the boat and the seabed. The only difference will be potentially in the moment that the chain goes taut (hopefully vertically) when it should pull the anchor out of the bottom, and for the period when the anchor is actually dangling from the chain, and I doubt those 5Kg extra will even be noticeable.

 

[duncan99210]

As to 10mm v 8mm chain, I have a 39 foot, 8 tonne(ish) boat with a 20kg Rocna. I use 8mm chain and have no intention of changing it. Anchor for upwards of 120 nights a year, been doing that for seven years now and never a hint of the chain not being up to the job. Oh and I have a 1000 watt windlass which copes easily with the chain and anchor and occasionally a couple of other folks anchors and chains.......

 

[gasdave]

Thanks guys - good sensible answers here as always!

Yes, I would normally use a snubber too so that's a good point neil1967

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thank you, all so far.

Yes, I too have read many of the reports describing the relative differences in performance of the newer generation anchors compared with others, including the Delta. In my ideal world where I'm spending a lot more time aboard, and therefore on anchor, I would upgrade to something like a Rocna. However I used a Delta with no problems on my previous boat and I believe it's the best of the "previous" generation and at something around a third of the cost I think it represents better value for my expected requirements just now. I also carry an FX23 Fortress.
The "logic" behind my question was based on expected difference in holding power between 15kg copy CQR and 20kg Delta. This would be based on (1) increased weight of anchor and (2) increased surface area of buried anchor (probably more important). Increased holding power would require increased pulling power from windlass to release.
Interestingly I now note the 20kg Delta recommendations are for 10mm chain, so following this through would require a windlass, or at least gypsy, change anyway!! Now I'm thinking 16kg Delta...

I really would not change to 10mm chain! Think of the extra weight and bulk - no fall in the anchor locker..... Ignore what delta have said. I use 8mm on a 12 ton 40 footer plus 20 meters of Nylon snubber for the real blows. The snubber is better than any heavy weights on the chain. - so no reason not to use the 20kg if it fits.

 

[Robin]

I really would not change to 10mm chain! Think of the extra weight and bulk - no fall in the anchor locker..... Ignore what delta have said. I use 8mm on a 12 ton 40 footer plus 20 meters of Nylon snubber for the real blows. The snubber is better than any heavy weights on the chain. - so no reason not to use the 20kg if it fits.

WE had a 16kg Delta on all 10mm chain on our 41ft Sun Legende back in our UK days, no problems with either. Windlass was a Lewmar Horizon mounted on a ledge in the anchor locker. It did volcano pile on retrieve but with the locker lid open waseasy enough to de-pile. WE re-vampe our ground tackle on our current 36 foot boat in the USA and went for a 20kg Delta on 150ft of all 3/8 in (10mm) chain. The 20kg Delta (45lbs) is one size up from normally recommended but I could have gone another size or even two sizes up for the same money as a designer label anchor, that I had no personal experience of, versus many years of nights anchored on the Delta. Another important consideration was that the newgen designer label stuff would have required a new bow roller arrangement whereas the Delta fitted in place just fine. We have a Maxwell windlass now that handles it OK and which already had a 3/8(10mm) gypsy fitted. The key to reducing load on the windlass is to move the boat towards the anchor not the other way round, such that it is only the weight of the chain being lifted and that is only the weight of chain equal to the depth, not the total amount laying on the bottom still.. Our chain does pile on retrieval but we have a telescopic fish gaff that we use to jerk it away from the volcano pile every so often, don't even have to bend over. The windlass is on deck above the anchor locker which has a large openable lid for easy access. .

 

[NormanS]

WE had a 16kg Delta on all 10mm chain on our 41ft Sun Legende back in our UK days, no problems with either. Windlass was a Lewmar Horizon mounted on a ledge in the anchor locker. It did volcano pile on retrieve but with the locker lid open waseasy enough to de-pile. WE re-vampe our ground tackle on our current 36 foot boat in the USA and went for a 20kg Delta on 150ft of all 3/8 in (10mm) chain. The 20kg Delta (45lbs) is one size up from normally recommended but I could have gone another size or even two sizes up for the same money as a designer label anchor, that I had no personal experience of, versus many years of nights anchored on the Delta. Another important consideration was that the newgen designer label stuff would have required a new bow roller arrangement whereas the Delta fitted in place just fine. We have a Maxwell windlass now that handles it OK and which already had a 3/8(10mm) gypsy fitted. The key to reducing load on the windlass is to move the boat towards the anchor not the other way round, such that it is only the weight of the chain being lifted and that is only the weight of chain equal to the depth, not the total amount laying on the bottom still.. Our chain does pile on retrieval but we have a telescopic fish gaff that we use to jerk it away from the volcano pile every so often, don't even have to bend over. The windlass is on deck above the anchor locker which has a large openable lid for easy access. .

Robin, I'm not arguing with anything you say, but I do wish that you wouldn't keep suggesting that 3/8" is the same as 10mm, cos it ain't. A gypsy made for one, won't necessarily fit the other.

 

[Robin]

Robin, I'm not arguing with anything you say, but I do wish that you wouldn't keep suggesting that 3/8" is the same as 10mm, cos it ain't. A gypsy made for one, won't necessarily fit the other.

I mention 3/8 because that is what I had to buy to fit our windlass, actually 3/8 HT but What I had on our UK boat was proper 10mm 'cos it was European stuff not chinodoodle Not for one moment am I suggesting that 10mm and 3/8in are identical, only similar in size. In our case too, for maximum confusion, our current boat was actually built in France and shipped to the USA so the existing gypsy could have been either metric or imperial depending where the windlass and ground tackle was actually added. In practice I obtained an 18" length of 3/8 HT from the supplier to test fit around the gypsy before ordering the full uncut, unjoined length that we now have. Sorry if I might have confused anyone.:culpability:

 

[thinwater]

Thank you, all so far.

Yes, I too have read many of the reports describing the relative differences in performance of the newer generation anchors compared with others, including the Delta. In my ideal world where I'm spending a lot more time aboard, and therefore on anchor, I would upgrade to something like a Rocna. However I used a Delta with no problems on my previous boat and I believe it's the best of the "previous" generation and at something around a third of the cost I think it represents better value for my expected requirements just now. I also carry an FX23 Fortress.
The "logic" behind my question was based on expected difference in holding power between 15kg copy CQR and 20kg Delta. This would be based on (1) increased weight of anchor and (2) increased surface area of buried anchor (probably more important). Increased holding power would require increased pulling power from windlass to release.
Interestingly I now note the 20kg Delta recommendations are for 10mm chain, so following this through would require a windlass, or at least gypsy, change anyway!! Now I'm thinking 16kg Delta...

I had a Delta before my Manson. Just don't. They don't bury and they are terrible in mud or gravel. A 15 kilo Rocna and a 20 kilo Delta are the same price, and the new gen will hold more. The 15 kilo Rocna or Manson should be plenty. I have a 34' cat and probably more windage.

8mm with a snubber.

 

[Robin]

I had a Delta before my Manson. Just don't. They don't bury and they are terrible in mud or gravel. A 15 kilo Rocna and a 20 kilo Delta are the same price, and the new gen will hold more. The 15 kilo Rocna or Manson should be plenty. I have a 34' cat and probably more windage.

8mm with a snubber.

Delta was fine for me 41ft monohull, over 10 years, in mud, hard sand, even gravel and in all weathers in European waters, never dragged nor had any difficulty setting, never tried it in Chesapeake mud however where I hear Fortress is top dog.. I considered a Rocna but it would not fit on my existing bow roller. A Spade or Mansion supreme would have fit If I had a lottery win, but I didn't. So instead I used the money saved to buy a bigger Delta, more weight and greater surface area. We have a Fortress too as back up and kedge. personal choice compromise as always.. .