Wind instruments (and other matters) - meh.

[Laminar Flow]

Yes! I would love getting seasick in less time than it takes to tell it
I speak to lots of sailors who cannot go below for more than a few minutes when under way so an enclosed pilot house would be a silly thing for most. Plus a load of glass exposed to a decent wave would not be something I would like.
That says nothing for the ugly appendages one often sees on boats to accomodate these things.
My next door neighbour has a nice set of sliding white plastic patio doors on his conservatory, so I expect he would feel quite at home with one
Pilot house? Not on your life thankyou

Perception and reality, perhaps?

Firstly, we are not "down below", the WH deck is on the same level as the cockpit and we see it more as an extension of the same.

I too had concerns about the "green house" at first. Meanwhile, I'm much more relaxed about that.

We have now sailed her well over 10,000 miles and in winds up to F9, and F8 quite a few times, we had 3-5m breaking seas in the Baltic, North Sea and Atlantic (Brittany), been through the Swinge at Alderney (wind over tide), Selsey Bill in a F5-6, the Gatts in Holland in nasty conditions, crossed the Channel at least twice in marginal weather. We have never managed to put her nose through a wave or ship much more than spray, a bucketful at best, in the worst of conditions and never, ever more than a cupful into her cockpit.
She is without doubt the driest boat I have ever sailed on, including my last and which was over 50'.
Near 2m high, buoyant bows with a lot of flare and a freeboard akin to an aircraft carrier do come in handy at times. She has never given us a moments worry at sea; docking in reverse during strong cross winds might be a different issue.

 

[Stemar]

You want a pilot house with windshield wipers, trust me. My wife still comes sailing with me; rather go down with the ship than be left alone, she says - true love that.

You are, of course, entirely correct. That's exactly what I do want. On a 35 footer. Unfortunately, pauvreté oblige

 

[johnalison]

Pilot house? Not on your life thankyou

I have never had a pilot house but although some boats with them look out of proportion, I don't despise them or the softies who sail them. I have a preference for an aft cockpit, and for my size of boat, 34, that is really my only option. I have a friend with a Fisher 37, which suits them well but it can't give much sailing satisfaction I would have thunk. On the other hand, a few years ago we motored through the Friesland canals in company with a Nauticat 33 when it was very cold, wet, and windy. When we met at the end of the day we would be covered in sodden oilies while they were still in pyjamas.

 

[Daydream believer]

have a friend with a Fisher 37, which suits them well but it can't give much sailing satisfaction I would have thunk. On the other hand, a few years ago we motored through the Friesland canals in company with a Nauticat 33 when it was very cold, wet, and windy. When we met at the end of the day we would be covered in sodden oilies while they were still in pyjamas.

With the greatest respect & I take your point.
But I do not sail in the Friesland canals. I sail along the English channel & the Thames estuary (apart from a couple of round UK & biscay trips) I often sail in F7. I have been caught in F8 quite a few times, but certainly neither by choice. I do not normally get wet & my boat is not a wet boat. Sitting up to windward at the helm, one is quite clear of the odd dollop that the odd nasty wave throws up. That is only when sailing upwind.-
. I wear decent oilies with proper base layers. I rarely get cold. It is just sensible sailing adapted to the area I sail in. I enjoy sailing quickly & would hate plodding in the type of boat with a greenhouse that one would be referring to. I know it would make me sick.
I could not compare sitting at a seat with a little wheel between my knees, to sailing
But to each his own & if sailing ( actually you said motoring & that is something else) in ones pyjamas turns one on then -- Well what can one say

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My spray hood is essential for cowering under through the night.
My wind instrument gives me an instantaneous gauge of the true wind which allows me to continuously compare reality to forecast and plan ahead.
I have antique bottom handed non tailing winches but I can steer with my hips whilst winching.
My tiller pilot is essential as I sail singlehanded. I carry a spare and upwind I lash the tiller whenever possible.
Hot water from the kettle
No fridge or ice box

Ive never seen a pretty boat with a pilot house.

 

[johnalison]

With the greatest respect & I take your point.
But I do not sail in the Friesland canals. I sail along the English channel & the Thames estuary (apart from a couple of round UK & biscay trips) I often sail in F7. I have been caught in F8 quite a few times, but certainly neither by choice. I do not normally get wet & my boat is not a wet boat. Sitting up to windward at the helm, one is quite clear of the odd dollop that the odd nasty wave throws up. That is only when sailing upwind.-
. I wear decent oilies with proper base layers. I rarely get cold. It is just sensible sailing adapted to the area I sail in. I enjoy sailing quickly & would hate plodding in the type of boat with a greenhouse that one would be referring to. I know it would make me sick.
I could not compare sitting at a seat with a little wheel between my knees, to sailing
But to each his own & if sailing ( actually you said motoring & that is something else) in ones pyjamas turns one on then -- Well what can one say

I am closer to your position than you may think. Although I have no intention of getting a pilot house boat, my age and tendency to Raynaulds at the least provocation makes them quite appealing at times. We can laugh at their appearance but I have met a number of couples who enjoy both the shelter and the ability to sit in comfort and look outside when berthed. Sailing one from inside must be quite disorientating, but a lot of people cruise on autopilot anyway. The most uninvolving boat I have sailed was a friend’s 45ft centre-cockpit boat with hydraulic steering. It was a strange sensation but you sort of got used to it after a while.

 

[Stemar]

We can laugh at their appearance but I have met a number of couples who enjoy both the shelter and the ability to sit in comfort and look outside when berthed

I've had some very practical things laughed at in my time - and laughed at others' ideas, but I think few would disagree with me when I say that bashing back from Cherbourg in a 6+ and pissing rain in an open cockpit is an over-rated experience. A pilot house with a heater would seem like a very good idea then, no matter how ugly detractors may find it

 

[capnsensible]

A few years ago I was invited, by a friend who I had done some coaching for...Yachtmaster......as a watch keeper on the boat he was skipper of.

So, all expenses paid trip from Antigua to Barcelona. On a Sunreef 74 catamaran. I can advise that getting fed by an award winning chef who can do BBQ steaks in a following gale on the aft deck, as many showers a day as you want, laundry washed and dried, massive bed with sea views and biiiig tv plus over 400 movies can be got used to in several seconds.

My fab moody 33 lacks all of that. But mid Atlantic sunrises are just as awesome. ?

 

[bitbaltic]

Quite amused by the conversation around self-tailing winches. When we bought our boat she had single-speed self tailing primaries (Antal 16s) and non tailing Harken 8s on the coachroof. She’s a light displacement 30 footer.

for the last 8 years she has sported twin speed Harken 35.2 self tailors all round. They are literally the difference between my wife being willing to come sailing and not. The difference these (overpower) winches make to the boat and her ease of handling is incredible. They were fitted as part of a full sail and running rigging overhaul which also included tri-radial laminates from Saunders (furling Genoa with a foam luff), all dyneema running rigging sized down, a new seldom furlex (replacing a useless facnor), seldom rod kicker and most importantly a tidesmarine Teflon mast track.

raising the main doesn’t actually require winching thanks to the superb performance of the tidesmarine and the fully battened sanders main. But the winches come into their own when reefing because we can reef main or Genoa on any point of sail in any wind (up to F5 at least) without changing heading or doing any of the traditional dances (head to wind, engine, even hove to) that people think is normal.

we regularly lock out with boats that spend 20 minutes getting their sails up and messing about, it takes us a minute or two to raise sails and we’re off and away while they are still messing about. Similarly if we want to reef or drop sail we just open the clutch and let it drop into the stack pack whatever the wind or heading.

antique sail handling gear is definitely not comparable to modern technologies especially on smaller lighter boats.

 

[johnalison]

Quite amused by the conversation around self-tailing winches. When we bought our boat she had single-speed self tailing primaries (Antal 16s) and non tailing Harken 8s on the coachroof. She’s a light displacement 30 footer.

for the last 8 years she has sported twin speed Harken 35.2 self tailors all round. They are literally the difference between my wife being willing to come sailing and not. The difference these (overpower) winches make to the boat and her ease of handling is incredible. They were fitted as part of a full sail and running rigging overhaul which also included tri-radial laminates from Saunders (furling Genoa with a foam luff), all dyneema running rigging sized down, a new seldom furlex (replacing a useless facnor), seldom rod kicker and most importantly a tidesmarine Teflon mast track.

raising the main doesn’t actually require winching thanks to the superb performance of the tidesmarine and the fully battened sanders main. But the winches come into their own when reefing because we can reef main or Genoa on any point of sail in any wind (up to F5 at least) without changing heading or doing any of the traditional dances (head to wind, engine, even hove to) that people think is normal.

we regularly lock out with boats that spend 20 minutes getting their sails up and messing about, it takes us a minute or two to raise sails and we’re off and away while they are still messing about. Similarly if we want to reef or drop sail we just open the clutch and let it drop into the stack pack whatever the wind or heading.

antique sail handling gear is definitely not comparable to modern technologies especially on smaller lighter boats.

Now you’ve put the cat among the doves. Stackpacks may be useful to those too lazy to do some useful work on board, but no boat looks better for having a ridiculous triangle of blue, red, or green canvas occupying 3.5% of the sail area above the boom.

 

[westernman]

She has never given us a moments worry at sea; docking in reverse during strong cross winds might be a different issue.

Cross winds I can manage. I can point the bows in the right direction and adjust the reversing speed just right. Then the wind pushes the bow right to line up perfectly.

However, when the wind is close to dead on the bow, you can´t do that. And the bows won't stay lined up long enough to get enough way on to reverse into the berth. In those conditions I have to call the marina and ask for some one to come out in a bow thruster. dink to help out.

 

[johnalison]

Cross winds I can manage. I can point the bows in the right direction and adjust the reversing speed just right. Then the wind pushes the bow right to line up perfectly.

However, when the wind is close to dead on the bow, you can´t do that. And the bows won't stay lined up long enough to get enough way on to reverse into the berth. In those conditions I have to call the marina and ask for some one to come out in a bow thruster. dink to help out.

There are always going to be some situations that are either non-viable or non-escapable. The skill is in recognising them before they become expensive.

 

[Blueboatman]

Yachting World reviewed an Elan with a microwave that raises and lowers into the galley work surface , electrically ...just to add to Dougs Marmite inventory ?
I could live with/out everything he has listed

My real hate is the hassle associated with buying, servicing, giving space to, cleaning, buying service parts for and dragging along the weight and propellor when sailing, an inboard engine.

But I would sorely miss it !?

 

[Laminar Flow]

I have never had a pilot house but although some boats with them look out of proportion, I don't despise them or the softies who sail them. I have a preference for an aft cockpit, and for my size of boat, 34, that is really my only option. I have a friend with a Fisher 37, which suits them well but it can't give much sailing satisfaction I would have thunk. On the other hand, a few years ago we motored through the Friesland canals in company with a Nauticat 33 when it was very cold, wet, and windy. When we met at the end of the day we would be covered in sodden oilies while they were still in pyjamas.

I agree that most PH boats are not the picture of elegance, but once you are onboard you can't really tell how badly out of proportion it is or not. As far as esthetics go, I think the Fishers have resolved it quite well and it is probably best not to be too coy about it and to try and hide the wretched thing as was attempted with the Westerly Duo.

A PH is not just convenient for ditch crawling and even then we always tried to sail whenever possible and allowed in the Friesian canals. Wandering between PH and the spacious level cockpit to adjust the sails is enjoyable and easy and it does not involve any climbing or contortion. My wife, who occasionally suffers from mal de mer, can be made comfortable and safe, lying down on the bench in the PH, where I can keep an eye on her and the boat and she can still feel she is part of the business of running the ship.
It is true, we do not have oilies, but then we do not sail in our pajamas or underwear either.

The biggest problem with the type are the low SA/D ratios, IMHO, and I suspect that much of the lore regarding their phenomenal seaworthiness is derived from the fact they don't really get going until the more sensible skippers of conventional craft are thinking of running for shelter. It can be fixed; I did.

We do not spend all that much time at the wheel; as soon as we reach open water the AP goes on and I muck around with the sails, trying to squeeze every little bit of speed possible out of her and we are not afraid to push her hard. As a result we make excellent passage times. We have fond memories taking tea in the deep fore deck well, while sailing between Dartmouth and Guernsey, with a blanket over our knees and the boat racing along at 7.5kts.

She is not a day sailer, she's an all-weather traveling machine with hot&cold running water, shower(s), fridge, central heating , a galley suitable for cooking gourmet food, a large spacious cockpit for plein-air dining and a roof over our heads when we want it.

 

[Daydream believer]

Do without splay hood and use Darth Vader welding helmet when raining.

.People go on about rain but I do not actually seem to get caught in it that much. Normally a quick passing shower. True, I have had some really heavy thunderstorms off the Belgian coast, but then it has come with rolling seas & I have been at the helm where a sprayhood would be of little use anyway. My Musto jacket has a perfectly good hood & once the full kit is on I do not suffer from damp. One just needs to wear the correct kit, base layers etc. Damp( mentioned by others) only starts when one is wearing incorrect clothing. I get more hassle finding room to store it down below once the trip has finished. Normally it gets hung in the shower to drip dry.
I actually think that the problems of rain is over stated - unless sailing more towards the W & NW parts of the UK. Certainly the Thames estuary & the southern English Channel in the summer sailing season is fairly rain free.
I do enjoy being in a marina laying in bed at night, all warm & cosy, listening to a cloud burst beating down on the deck, knowing that I am not gonna get wet. Has a lovely calming effect

 

[TernVI]

Now you’ve put the cat among the doves. Stackpacks may be useful to those too lazy to do some useful work on board, but no boat looks better for having a ridiculous triangle of blue, red, or green canvas occupying 3.5% of the sail area above the boom.

A boat looks better for having sails up.
Any sails, roller reefed, in mast main, whatever, looks better than a boat with a mast motoring along the coast.
Even a masthead rigged ketch with a badly cut cruising chute.

I'm thankful that I can haul up the main on a 44ft boat, and that's the kind of boat I prefer.
But I respect people who actually sail from place to place in a motor sailor above those who criticise them.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Hmm, as this tread appears to be about the comforts or benefits (or not) of various gear and accoutrements, it has to be noted that people use their boats in different ways and clearly have different requirements and expectations.

We cruise, with the kids too, when they were younger; they are grown now with lives of their own (they may revisit, with partners or friends) Pre-Covid, we spent at least 3-4 months a year traveling by boat around the coasts of Northern Europe. This included the Baltic, the North Sea, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Holland (quite a few years) and Southern UK & Channel Islands, France, including Brittany; our absolute favourite. Ireland and Scotland are on the plan, next and post plague.

Much of our cruising has been out of season, we like it when the summer crowds have left. I have sailed the Baltic in May, when the night frost would leave a sheen of ice in the harbour and Holland, when the winds cover the decks in a blanket of fall leaves. Even a summer in Brittany can seem like a wet winter.

I've done my fair share of the cold & wet: days, weeks climbing into the same wet and eventually smelly foulies while crossing an ocean in stormy weather or months battling up a 2000 mile coast line against prevailing winds, weather and currents. I'm done with that; perhaps I'm getting a little soft in my old age, for I do like being in a comfy, warm space with a cozy dry bunk. Watching a downpour through the windows of the wheelhouse while sipping on a hot cuppa is near enough, thank you.

I have never really understood the supposed heroics of the cruising sailor, out in the weather as the seas scour the decks, while the professional fisherman happily stands watch in his wheelhouse. No one in his right mind would dare call him a sissy. Even the racers these days now take cover behind substantial deck shelters. If I want to sit out in the rain, I still have a cockpit for that.

My first boat was a dilapidated Water Witch I fixed up in my early twenties. It had an air cooled Lister; while running you had to leave a cockpit locker open to vent. We used to lay a cheap tarp over it to keep our knees warm on a miserable day. Now we turn on the Webasto in the WH. After struggling with various wood and diesel stoves throughout the years, I love the thing. Turn the dial and there is bliss, no soot, no smell, no fuss.

Welcome to my world of geriatric sailing and I do not have to do it on my own either: my best friend, my wife, still comes with me. After all, the whole point of this venture is that it is supposed to be pleasurable, is it not?

 

[TernVI]

.People go on about rain but I do not actually seem to get caught in it that much. Normally a quick passing shower. ...

Worst rain is usually in port.
I don't think that's just me staying in port during the worst rain, I think it actually rains less once you're out there.

 

[Tranona]

Now you’ve put the cat among the doves. Stackpacks may be useful to those too lazy to do some useful work on board, but no boat looks better for having a ridiculous triangle of blue, red, or green canvas occupying 3.5% of the sail area above the boom.

I trust you have good data to demonstrate the major loss in speed from the 3.5% loss in mainsail area (approx 1.75% of typical total sail area). You may not like the aesthetics but clearly the huge number of people that fit stackpacks (and the speed with which they were adopted when they first came out) suggests that folks find them a very useful thing to have. Nothing to do with laziness, more to do with convenience and safety - why leave the cockpit and go onto the coachroof to tame the mainsail when you can do it easily from the cockpit as bitbaltic describes?

 

[Laminar Flow]

A boat looks better for having sails up.
Any sails, roller reefed, in mast main, whatever, looks better than a boat with a mast motoring along the coast.
Even a masthead rigged ketch with a badly cut cruising chute.

I'm thankful that I can haul up the main on a 44ft boat, and that's the kind of boat I prefer.
But I respect people who actually sail from place to place in a motor sailor above those who criticise them.

Good to know.
Finally, after a life time of dreaming, designing, building, restoring, sailing, cruising and racing boats across seas and oceans, I am finally able to sound out the very bottom of the evolutionary scale of water craft: A masthead rigged ketch with a badly cut cruising chute and a motorsailer to boot, that is us to a T.
We do try to sail her from A to B, even over some distance, so, perhaps, all is not lost?