Wind Force 4/5, long fetch, one full sail or 2 reefed?

[DJE]

I don't think you are going to overstress the rig. I have a similar masthead rig with a large overlapping genoa and mine also goes to windward very well with no main and stays well balanced. The only problem you might have is if you have to tack for some reason. With all the sail area in the big genoa tacking is going to be hard work and the bow will blow off a long way while you are winching it in.

 

[misterg]

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't one of the possible causes of the catastrophic steering failure, and quickly followed sinking, of the Hanse 371 'Megawat' in the Irish Sea a couple of years ago, judged to be the loads put on a (weakened) rudder tube by carrying only the full main in fairly big seas?

[/ QUOTE ]

The MCIB report is here .

While there is some speculation in the body of the report, you need to look at the correspondence appended to it (page 44) for what (in my opinion) is almost certainly the real cause; viz: fatigue failure of the stock due to the bending loads in the rudder stock created by fitting the AP quadrant some distance from the supporting bearings, compounded by the stock having a change in section and some rough machining in this area.

As to the original question: In my limited experience, the boat goes better up wind with the main up, too. At F4/5, neither would be reefed, but the main would be reefed first if the wind picked up much more.

Andy

 

[Twister_Ken]

For me a fetch is not a beat, but a point of sail between a beat and a reach: wind forward of the beam, but not on the nose. A beat where you don't need to tack is, for me, a one-sided beat. Different strokes, different folk singers.

 

[misterg]

[ QUOTE ]
For me a fetch is not a beat, but a point of sail between a beat and a reach: wind forward of the beam, but not on the nose...

[/ QUOTE ]

A close reach, then? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Different strokes, different folk singers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.

Andy

 

[Twister_Ken]

"A close reach, then? "

No, a fetch!

 

[William_H]

A couple of years back we had a Farr727 sport fractional rig doing a club twilight cruise/race. The owners son elected to go fo a large jib and no main. He had 9 people on board . In 20 knots on the wind coming home the jib was put about. With so many people in the way the jib was not released and the backing rolled the boat over and filled it with water. I came along a little later to see the amazing sight of a rudder and stern sticking out of the water. Bow straight down. She was recovered the next day. Insurance report included 9 mobile phones lost. All passengers OK.

The point is that you can be overpowered by a large jib and it may not be easy to release sheet pressure. Whereas a main can usually be released easily. I would always sail with main reefed and small jib as being far more efficient and easier to handle. olewill

 

[shamrock]

We'll often motorsail with jib alone but if actually sailing then it's two or three sails (cutter rig). If it's over an hour's trip, the effort to hoist the main increases flexibility and options.

But mainly because, although the total rig stress may be the same, using one full sail instead of two reefed ones means that the full sail is stressed. I'd not be comfortable flying full jib in conditions where I'd normally reef jib and main for risk of stretching or even tearing the sail. Probably OK with the wind aft of the beam but once sheeted in the loads on the cloth and seams go up a lot.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Surely the hidden question in all this chat is about how easy (or not) it is to hoist and set the mainsail, and how confident a sailor your wife is?

For example my wife doesn't like standing on a the coachroof of a small boat trying to undo sail ties, (or secure a mainsail) when the boat is slopping about. She doesn't much like me up there either, and there is always a 'Be careful' or 'Do you need a harness?' if I start bouncing around the coachroof. We have a bigger boat now, so its not so much of an issue, but with smaller boats, I know how worried she got and how nervous of the mainsail she was as a result.

Whilst not a fan of inmast reefing mainsails, perhaps there might be a case for having one if your wife is as nervous of the main as you might seem to imply. Our solution is to have a stackpack with a fully battened main. The unzipping is quick and easy and there are no sail ties to prat about with whilst doing the coachroof mainsail dance. So long as you watch what you are doing when you hoist and make sure that the battens don't get caught in the lazyjacks, its one of the best modifications we've ever made on a boat. It nearly always stays unzipped
whenever we are at sea, with the haliard shackled on ready to go.

If its not the deployment of the main that worries her, then is it the actual sailing? Is there an underlying feeling in her psyche that says, "I know how to roll the genoa away, and I can get everything back under control if you fall overboard" - but she is worried about the complexities of the mainsail?

Perhaps some sailing lessons in a sailing course just with other woman to build some confidence coupled with a look at your mainsail control systems might be another thought?

 

[jb2008]

Cockpit single line reefing might be another option?
Probably cheaper than retro-fitting in-mast reefing.

 

[steve350]

Fetch: When a vessel is able to reach her objective without tacking she is said to fetch it. Also the distance a wind has been blowing over open water.

 

[Chris_Robb]

John - Ease of setting the sails is important to a husband and wife (nervous) crew, This is my second year with in mast furling, I whilst I get very upset about the crap pointing to windward, partly induced by baggy 140% Genoa, I have had some really heavy sailing this year; the reefing was just so easy and was done in complete safety of the cockpit.

In mentioning my baggy genoa - I asked my tame sail maker what he thought of the sail - he said the material was too light for extended cruising, and needed to be at least 2 cloth weights heavier. He has suggested that for the Med I need a 110% genoa in much heavier cloth, the logic being that it either blows of you motor in the med. With a 140% genoa you will always be sailing to windward with a rolled up bag, compromising the inmast furling even more. He also suggested a cross cut in stead of the bi radial cut I have at the moment.

As you have a similar boat, what do think of this advice? We are off to the Med on May 1st 2009.................... Can't wait!


Chris

 

[Chris_Robb]

Agree with you - but would question Ken's interpretation as not being hard on the wind.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Hard on the wind is a beat, sheets eased a bit is a fetch, sheets eased a bit more is a reach.

Sez me. YMMV

 

[steve350]

Hi Chris, the definition is not mine, I found it in the book "Voyaging Under Sail" by Eric Hiscock.

 

[matelot]

[ QUOTE ]
Re the general principle of dropping one sail rather than reef both - wasn't one of the possible causes of the catastrophic steering failure, and quickly followed sinking, of the Hanse 371 'Megawat' in the Irish Sea a couple of years ago, judged to be the loads put on a (weakened) rudder tube by carrying only the full main in fairly big seas? I seem to remember several commentators suggesting that this arrangement is often chosen because it is easier to reef the genoa and carry full main rather than reef both; but that the consequence can be very high loads on the steering.

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Would only be high loads on the steering if the boat became difficult to steer which didnt apply in this case. Personally I reckon that any boat whose steering fails in normal use (ie without hitting anything) is not fit for purpose.

I seem to remember they tried to blame the installation of an autohelm, or was that a different boat?

 

[Chris_Robb]

wotsa YMMV?

 

[billywilliams]

Shamrock (Irish), UK East Coast, Scotland, USA, Carribean, Canada – how come a Welsh boat name?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Your Mileage May Vary

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
John - Ease of setting the sails is important to a husband and wife (nervous) crew, This is my second year with in mast furling, I whilst I get very upset about the crap pointing to windward, partly induced by baggy 140% Genoa, I have had some really heavy sailing this year; the reefing was just so easy and was done in complete safety of the cockpit.

In mentioning my baggy genoa - I asked my tame sail maker what he thought of the sail - he said the material was too light for extended cruising, and needed to be at least 2 cloth weights heavier. He has suggested that for the Med I need a 110% genoa in much heavier cloth, the logic being that it either blows of you motor in the med. With a 140% genoa you will always be sailing to windward with a rolled up bag, compromising the inmast furling even more. He also suggested a cross cut in stead of the bi radial cut I have at the moment.

As you have a similar boat, what do think of this advice? We are off to the Med on May 1st 2009.................... Can't wait!


Chris

[/ QUOTE ]I think his advice makes sense. My last discussions with my sailmaker convinced me that I probably need TWO genoas. A lightweight reaching genoa and a heavier weight beating and reaching genoa.

No where did I put my piggy bank...?

 

[Twister_Ken]

"No where did I put my piggy bank...?"

Iceland?