Wind damage at Ravenglass

Croak said:
I just get to 54 19. 94', 3 26.92' The head about 75 degrees for about 2/3 of a mile to the first buoy, Then head for the second, then head for any floating boat.

I usually have at least 5 foot under me.

The entrance at the above point is large rocks so it doesn't move the channel moves a bit but the Ravenglass Boating Association move the buoys to compensate for this.

Not sure how you overcome your "not being able to take the ground" though.

And you may get intercepted by the Range boat, wanting to know your intentions.
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Ta for that. You're right though, it's unlikely to happen in Avocet, but one day, we'll maybe have a twin keeler. Personally, I rather like Ravenglass, and the kids love La'l Ratty! What about the terrifying tales I've heard about wind-over-tide at the bar? Is it as bad as they say?
 
Croak said:
The problem I have had is the range keeping me out so there was not enough water to get to my mooring.
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I've often made the passage between Glasson Dock and Whitehaven, which obviously means passing Ravenglass and the Eskmeals range. I've sometimes been intercepted by the range patrol boat, they've always been content with asking my intentions and then allowed me to proceed. Can they / do they actually forbid you to proceed? I Did hear of a yachtsman being ordered to move much further offshore while transiting the range area. He refused on the grounds that doing so would make him too late to get through the sea lock into Whitehaven and no disciplinary action was taken.

I usually transit the area about two miles offshore and often hear firing but I have the impression the shells are passing high overhead.

For Avocet: yes Ravenglass bar is very bad with an onshore wind, and it doesn't have to be a very strong one. I had to leave my boat there once and go home by train.
 
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JimC said:
Can they / do they actually forbid you to proceed?
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I don't know if the same rules apply to that range, but for my local one (Aberporth), no, they can't, if you are making a direct passage through. They can request your co-operation, but that's all. There was a presentation at Poofelly marina last summer by Qinetiq who run Aberporth and the lady on the stand insisted that the exclusion was enforceable by law and that a skipper could be fined for entering when requested not to. Now I agreed with everything she said about making all efforts to avoid a range when in use, but I wasn't having it from her that it was legally enforceable. She wouldn't agree with me, so I went to get my laptop, downloaded the byelaws, and showed her...

http://www.fbyc.org.uk/img/Range Bye Laws (3).pdf

Section 8,3,a.

She was a bit taken aback, deflated, and we both agreed that she needed to be better informed before going in front of the public and stating laws that do not exist.
 
Good info', thanks.

I've just looked up the byelaws for the Eskmeals range https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...eskmeals_proof_experimental_establishment.pdf. The key paragraph for yachtsmen appears to be Exemption 8 (3) which states "These byelaws in so far as they relate to the Sea Area do not apply to any vessel not being used for fishing in the Sea Area passing through the Sea Area in the ordinary course of navigation and remaining in the Sea Area no longer than is reasonably necessary to pass through the Sea Area." There is also an exemption for "any sailing vessel (whether or not equipped with an auxilliary engine), rowing boat or canoe operating out of Ravenglass".

So it seems we can't be prevented from transiting the range area as long as we do so as quickly as possible.
 
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I concur with the above, It is a request If you are on a passage, but not if you are fishing, swimming, picknicking etc. I have always obliged with their requests as I have at Aberporth and Kirkcudbright ranges. Even though the Aberporth request made me miss my passage through Bardsey Sound.

I was told a Story that A special training weekend for the Territorial Army had been set up At the Kirkcudbright range, to allow them to fire some live amo'. Unfortunatly either Kipford, Kirkcudbright or both, sailing clubs had a reggata that weekend and all they could do was watch sailing boats go by.

My opinion is that it is going to cost them a lot more than me to defer so I do.
 
JimC said:
Good info', thanks.

I've just looked up the byelaws for the Eskmeals range https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...eskmeals_proof_experimental_establishment.pdf. The key paragraph for yachtsmen appears to be Exemption 8 (3) which states "These byelaws in so far as they relate to the Sea Area do not apply to any vessel not being used for fishing in the Sea Area passing through the Sea Area in the ordinary course of navigation and remaining in the Sea Area no longer than is reasonably necessary to pass through the Sea Area." There is also an exemption for "any sailing vessel (whether or not equipped with an auxilliary engine), rowing boat or canoe operating out of Ravenglass".

So it seems we can't be prevented from transiting the range area as long as we do so as quickly as possible.
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Sounds pretty much the same as Aberporth. My attitude is to comply whenever possible, but don't let a private company (in this case Qinetiq) make up imaginary laws that do not exist, even if they would like them to.
 
Avocet said:
What about the terrifying tales I've heard about wind-over-tide at the bar? Is it as bad as they say?
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I wouldn't put it at terrifying. But it can be quite fun, I was surfing at 12knots down the waves in a 14mph wind from the north the last time I came in but it doesn't last long and is no worse than getting around ST Bees head. There are sometimes some quite confused seas, and my mate got seasick in that bit of water once, but a lot of the time it is quite benign.

The 4 peaks yacht race used to use Ravenglass as the stop for Skafell Pike before they moved to Whitehaven, I'm not sure how they managed, maybe they were all bilge keels.
 
Croak said:
The 4 peaks yacht race used to use Ravenglass as the stop for Skafell Pike before they moved to Whitehaven, I'm not sure how they managed, maybe they were all bilge keels.
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I believe it was moved to Whitehaven following the wrecking of a competing yacht on the Selker rocks while she was trying to get into Ravenglass, which brings us neatly back to somewhere near the original thread! By the way it's the 3 Peaks not 4.
 
AngusMcDoon said:
I don't know if the same rules apply to that range, but for my local one (Aberporth), no, they can't, if you are making a direct passage through. They can request your co-operation, but that's all. There was a presentation at Poofelly marina last summer by Qinetiq who run Aberporth and the lady on the stand insisted that the exclusion was enforceable by law and that a skipper could be fined for entering when requested not to. Now I agreed with everything she said about making all efforts to avoid a range when in use, but I wasn't having it from her that it was legally enforceable. She wouldn't agree with me, so I went to get my laptop, downloaded the byelaws, and showed her...

http://www.fbyc.org.uk/img/Range Bye Laws (3).pdf

Section 8,3,a.

She was a bit taken aback, deflated, and we both agreed that she needed to be better informed before going in front of the public and stating laws that do not exist.
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Rather like the video posted about the security guards at the crisp factory, and indeed, many council and local officials. They often talk out of their arses and rely on you not knowing better.
 
AngusMcdoon-thanks for posting the Aberporth Byelaws,I've been after information about Aberporth for ages.I did not realise that Fishing boats were treated differently to boats on passage.Allthough always very polite,Aberporth Range Control sometimes comes across as if they own Cardigan Bay.
There were several near misses on Ravenglass Bar during many Three Peaks Races.One chap on a Multihull lost his thumb (or finger)on one race.Several deep keel boats used to take the ground during that leg of the Race,sometimes at extreme angles.
I've not been there yet but it's on the todo list.(weather permitting)
Cheers
 
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The Ravenglass Boating Assn. was formed in the late 1970's primarily to counter proposed legislation that would have severely restricted navigation in the vicinity of the estuary. At the time, the Eskmeals range was operated by the MOD, and objections to their proposals were raised at parliamentary level IIRC.
Eventually, a satisfactory outcome was negotiated, allowing free passage, but not loitering, in the controlled area.
Over the years, boaters and the range were reasonably good neighbours. The MOD and its successors were helpful in maintaining leading marks etc on their shoreline and, supposedly, gave guidance to the occasional lost soul using their powerful radars.
The RBA now is much less active, I don't think that their provision of nav. marks can really be relied upon. In fact, boating activity in the estuary has declined considerably.
I'm not up to date, but the Kirkudbright range was managed by the Eskmeals operators, and probably has the same restrictions. AFAIK, it didn't actually fire out to sea, but the safety zone was in case of riccochet. It was controversial through its use of depleted uranium shells
 
We get thoroughly fed up with the long detour round the range off Lulworth Cove, Dorset.

One day in his boat, Dad - knowing this ' right to navigation ' set course straight through.

Shortly after, a huge fountain of spray like a depth charge in a WWII film went off about 1/4 mile ahead. Dad changed course.

We've often wondered if it was a good gunner with a sense of humour, or they didn't know he was there...

When testing Harriers from BAe Dunsfold we often used this range for inert warhead unguided rocket & bomb firing / releases.

On aircraft range runs, the pilot always does a dummy ' dry ' run first, to get alignments and also a last lookoput, though that's mainly down to the range bods.

Having done the dry run, our guy came in on his Hot Run in a Sea Harrier; the split second after he'd fired the Matra rockets he saw a fishing boat in the middle of the range.

They weren't hurt, we did wonder if they'd enjoyed the show and the film from my camera pods got a good crowd that afternoon.
 
Seajet said:
We get thoroughly fed up with the long detour round the range off Lulworth Cove, Dorset.

One day in his boat, Dad - knowing this ' right to navigation ' set course straight through.

Shortly after, a huge fountain of spray like a depth charge in a WWII film went off about 1/4 mile ahead. Dad changed course.
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I don't know the details of Lulworth and if you have the right to pass through like you do at the other ranges and testing grounds mentioned in this thread, but if you are so allowed and you are intending to exercise that right (which I am not encouraging), then it makes a lot of sense to call up range control and tell them so.
 
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I should have mentioned, Dad had been approached by a range boat and explained ( probably quite forthrightly, I wasn't there ) his intentions; so one way or another it was a bit naughty.

I mentioned that and the aircraft incident to illustrate that these ranges are maybe not as wonderfully controlled as they'd like to think...

We had another one on the missile range in Cardigan Bay when a Sea Harrier was about to do the first firing of the large Sea Eagle anti-ship missile ( UK's answer to Exocet ), when the pilot spotted his radar contact looked slightly different to the dry run - he'd been about to lock on to a fishing boat which might have caused some embarassment.
 
Back to the boat in question, What do I do?

I have been in touch with the R.B.A but no luck there. it is still not tied on.

Probably going to go out this afternoon to dig an anchor in and put a couple of lines on it, to stop it setting off and running into the bridge or even hitting my boat.

Am I likely to get into trouble for messing around with someone elses boat?
 
Sensibly, the owner presumably had a mooring line on initially, so your replacing of that can hardly be seen as destructive. Should it fail to refloat I suppose the owner could claim the tethering was the cause. However the possibility that it will refloat and damage other boats is a good counter to that.
I can't see how you could be held responsible after having tried to help. I think there is a "Good Samaritan" defence against such claims.
 
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