Will Schengen be suspended for two or three years.

[Alicatt]

I think on crossing a Schengen border, the immigration officer is supposed to scan all passports. The computer does the 90 in 180 day calculation for him. Stamps have little value.

From the British in Europe and Belgian Brits groups there have been a lot of people commenting on getting their passports stamped on entering the Schengen area whether it is the country they are resident in or A. N. Other country. Yes the stamp has little value but it does highlight to a casual inspection by the border guard that they may need to dig further.
From discussions with an EU immigration/residency lawyer the passports should not be stamped if accompanied with a residency card but they still are being stamped and the issue is being raised with the EU commission at the moment to give clearer directions to the relevant authorities.

 

[Graham376]

Neither of ours were stamped when leaving Portugal, we did show residence cards. Will see what happens on return but couldn't care less whether they do or not.

 

[Alicatt]

Neither of ours were stamped when leaving Portugal, we did show residence cards. Will see what happens on return but couldn't care less whether they do or not.

Our problem in Belgium is that the new ID/residence card for Brits under the Withdrawal Agreement, the M card, does not confer any rights to attaining citizenship and it has not been adopted into law either, again something the lawyers are pursuing with the Belgian government.
Some gemeente (local authorities) charge for the new M card and some don't, the prices vary between €9 and €25 for those that do charge, there is no joined up thinking here and the gemeente all have different criteria for what evidence is required to get the card, and then it depends on whom is working behind the desk in the vreemdlingen desk whether you get good or bad service.
It is a mess!

 

[Alicatt]

Talking of Royal Decrees, it was recently discovered in last month's published Royal Decree that there is a recipe for asparagus gratin, I know the Belgians take their food seriously but this is beyond the plate, I mean pale. ?

Asparagus recipe accidentally published in royal decree of Belgian law (yes, really) | The Bulletin

And you wonder why we are worried about the new ID cards getting recognised!

 

[Graham376]

Our problem in Belgium is that the new ID/residence card for Brits under the Withdrawal Agreement, the M card, does not confer any rights to attaining citizenship and it has not been adopted into law either, again something the lawyers are pursuing with the Belgian government.
It is a mess!

It does sound a mess. I was under the impression that under EU rules, anyone completing five years residence had a right to apply for permanent residence or even citizenship if they meet the criteria. Certainly it's the way it works in Portugal but what about other countries, are they all different?

 

[Alicatt]

It is the same in Belgium, 5 years of uninterrupted residency and you can apply for permanent residency and/or citizenship, 10 years and the rules are a little more relaxed in what proof you need for integration, and if you reach 65 years of age then they wave the language and integration tests too. - I'm 65 in 3 weeks time
It's only within the last year that they have started recognising the special ID card for those that work for the EU in Belgium, the big sticking point there was that the EU workers did not pay tax in Belgium.
But the M card not counting came as a bit of a bombshell here when one of the EU lawyers held an online conference for those of us Brits in Belgium spelled it out, Belgium can be quite difficult to get citizenship, but they do allow dual nationalities, so one can be Belgian in Belgium and a Brit and/or Belgian in another country

 

[Metabarca]

To become Italian you have to have five years in Italy of 'legitimate' residency, i.e. you have to prove that you've been paying your taxes here. Or you have to be a first-generation descendant of an Italian or married (or civil partnership) to one. Language test, a few papers from the UK (birth certificate, police certificate), €200 or and you're good to stay!
However, Brits who were resident at the time have already had their pre-brexit rights guaranteed in law some two or three years ago.

 

[Alicatt]

Our problem in Belgium is that the new ID/residence card for Brits under the Withdrawal Agreement, the M card, does not confer any rights to attaining citizenship and it has not been adopted into law either, again something the lawyers are pursuing with the Belgian government.
Some gemeente (local authorities) charge for the new M card and some don't, the prices vary between €9 and €25 for those that do charge, there is no joined up thinking here and the gemeente all have different criteria for what evidence is required to get the card, and then it depends on whom is working behind the desk in the vreemdlingen desk whether you get good or bad service.
It is a mess!

The draft Royal Decree has just been approved to include the new M Card as legal proof of residency in Belgium, that is a load off of a lot of people that were hesitant about getting the new card in case they lost their rights.
Brits after Brexit: M-card cleared for Belgian citizenship applications (brusselstimes.com)

British residents in Belgium can breathe a sigh of relief after the announcement that the new residency “M card” will be included in the list of residence documents that qualify for the acquisition of Belgian nationality.

This update means that the card – which all Brits living in Belgium before 31 December 2020 are entitled to apply for as proof of their status – will be added to the list of documents that can be used to prove a legal stay in the country.

 

[Bouba]

The draft Royal Decree has just been approved to include the new M Card as legal proof of residency in Belgium, that is a load off of a lot of people that were hesitant about getting the new card in case they lost their rights.
Brits after Brexit: M-card cleared for Belgian citizenship applications (brusselstimes.com)

Since these new residency cards require proof of residency such as an electric bill, then an electric bill would have counted equally towards citizenship?

 

[Alicatt]

Since these new residency cards require proof of residency such as an electric bill, then an electric bill would have counted equally towards citizenship?

Nope, does not work like that here, you go to the gemeente, with 3 passport sized photos, proof of residing ie. lease for the house/flat or the title deeds, proof of income, wage/salary slips, bank statements, your ID from the UK ie. passport and a police criminal record check. that's to get your ID card. Once you have submitted all that then the police will turn up unannounced at your door to inspect your house to see if you actually live there, they have no need of a search warrant they just come in and look through your drawers wardrobe, bathroom cabinet etc. etc. to see if the required articles of clothing and hygiene are present. In my case I was in my cinema chilling out to some Tubular Bells when the police man came in took one look and said "Mannengrot, ja, je woont hier" (Man cave, yes, you live here)

Electricity bills or other utility bills do not count for anything, even marriage counts for nothing, all that counts is 5 years of Tax receipts and/or ID card with at least 5 years of continuous residency.

 

[Bouba]

Nope, does not work like that here, you go to the gemeente, with 3 passport sized photos, proof of residing ie. lease for the house/flat or the title deeds, proof of income, wage/salary slips, bank statements, your ID from the UK ie. passport and a police criminal record check. that's to get your ID card. Once you have submitted all that then the police will turn up unannounced at your door to inspect your house to see if you actually live there, they have no need of a search warrant they just come in and look through your drawers wardrobe, bathroom cabinet etc. etc. to see if the required articles of clothing and hygiene are present. In my case I was in my cinema chilling out to some Tubular Bells when the police man came in took one look and said "Mannengrot, ja, je woont hier" (Man cave, yes, you live here)

Electricity bills or other utility bills do not count for anything, even marriage counts for nothing, all that counts is 5 years of Tax receipts and/or ID card with at least 5 years of continuous residency.

My card (France) should be ready soon. I don’t remember signing anything to say that the police can rifle through my stuff. But I believe that they can do that anytime for tax reasons so maybe they don’t need my say so.

 

[Alicatt]

It's a constant question here "Can the police just come in like that and rifle through my stuff?" for residency/domicile then yes they can, they do it to just about everyone, if you move house they will be on your doorstep within a couple of weeks to check to see if you actually have moved and are living there whether you are foreign or Belgian it makes no difference.

Now if it is a criminal case with a search warrant then they are not allowed to enter your house before 5am, if you lease/rent the house then they have to get permission from the owner too before they get the warrant issued.

I was involved in tracking an individual, a tracker had been placed in the person's vehicle and a geofence set up to alert us to when the person was going to be at a certain location, a search warrant was issued and was ready to be executed at 5am, however when the case came to court the evidence collected under the warrant was deemed inadmissible because we had failed to ask the owner of the property for permission, the fact that the owner was in league with the person of interest was deemed irrelevant and we should still have gotten it. Sigh, months of work down the drain for nothing.

 

[Bouba]

I was involved in tracking an individual, a tracker had been placed in the person's vehicle and a geofence set up to alert us to when the person was going to be at a certain location, a search warrant was issued and was ready to be executed at 5am, however when the case came to court the evidence collected under the warrant was deemed inadmissible because we had failed to ask the owner of the property for permission, the fact that the owner was in league with the person of interest was deemed irrelevant and we should still have gotten it. Sigh, months of work down the drain for nothing.

Alicatt, who exactly are you?

 

[Alicatt]

Inspector Gadget or just a retired old git

As it was a civil case and nothing came of it, it rankles a bit.

I'm a retired security consultant specialising in CCTV systems, mainly for businesses, most of the work was quite overt, as in deterrence, I worked extensively with a lot of police forces in the UK, the above was in Belgium, and boy were the rules different. I retired just after that, but that was not the reason, just a coincidence.
I only got into security work by accident, a high tech security company was looking for someone to integrate computers, CCTV, radio systems etc. and I picked up the phone call that was for someone else, that person was not available and as I was about to be made redundant due to the sale of the company I was working for, so I jumped at the chance

 

[Ric]

Power struggle in France is causing panic in the EU. Macron is now behind in the polls for 2022 election. Frexit? It is suggested that immigration to France is to be suspended. As Schengen and FoM is an intricate part of the EU system could we see a suspension of EU immigration and schengen as support for Macron. Italy would agree but maybe not Germany. However kt would be a possible disaster for the EU if Le Pen wins.

Incidentally, I recieved official permanent residence status just yesterday in a letter from migrationsverket.se It took them four month with requests for more evidence along the way for them to make their "decision". As a result my interest in EU affaires was sparked up a bit so I googled a bit for latest news and came across the above Schengen mutterings. Interesting times ahead.

It is pointed out that the EU will do anything to stop Le Pen from winning.

You misread the words of Macron (and indeed Michel Barnier). When they state that they want to stop immigration that does not mean close the French borders - it means no more residency permits for immigrants (and although not specifically stated - no more muslim immigrants).

Resident permits for Brits will not be affected because they are guaranteed under withdrawal agreement.

 

[Ric]

OK, here's a quote from a Dutch site - Travel in Schengen countries with a residence permit or visa (ind.nl)

Travel with a residence permit
A valid Dutch residence permit allows you to stay in all countries in the Schengen area up to 90 days in any 180 day period.

Please post any links you find to EU sites which state third country residents have unlimited days of travel in Schengen, when travelling alone. I've given up searching.

He is correct - residency in one Schengen country gives unlimited and indefinite travel within Schengen. However, you can only work in the country of the permit. If you want to take up employment in another country then you have to get another resident permit.

 

[Alicatt]

He is correct - residency in one Schengen country gives unlimited and indefinite travel within Schengen. However, you can only work in the country of the permit. If you want to take up employment in another country then you have to get another resident permit.

No it does not, it give NATIONALS unlimited and indefinite travel within Schengen, people with RESIDENCY permits are still restricted to 90/180 in other Schengen countries.

Travel with a residence permit
A valid Dutch residence permit allows you to stay in all countries in the Schengen area up to 90 days in any 180 day period.

 

[Graham376]

He is correct - residency in one Schengen country gives unlimited and indefinite travel within Schengen. However, you can only work in the country of the permit. If you want to take up employment in another country then you have to get another resident permit.

No it doesn't. Residence allows unlimited stay in that country but still 90/180 elsewhere unless travelling with spouse/partner who is an EU citizen.

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

EU law provides that certain third country nationals may enjoy short stays in the Schengen Area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period - without a visa. Since the end of the transition period on 31 December 2020, this also applies to UK citizens. Please note that this only allows you to remain in the Schengen Area as a tourist. Please note that this applies also to you, even if you are a resident in one of the member states.

Another reply I had from EU when querying travel with my wife is in #98

 

[BurnitBlue]

He is correct - residency in one Schengen country gives unlimited and indefinite travel within Schengen. However, you can only work in the country of the permit. If you want to take up employment in another country then you have to get another resident permit.

Thank you Ric. I stopped posting on this thread because I could never get my point across. The whole Schengen visa and residence permit is a house of cards so there is a set of mis-information in an effort tp paper over the cracks to stop the lot crashing down until it can be fixed. There is no law that specifically states what a free citizen is allowed to do. It should not be necessary. Laws in general state what a person cannot do. A law can insist what a person must NOT do. A law can also insist what a person must do. These are laws and usually passed by a parliament and written into law.

The following is the answer found in many places about residence and length of stay inside Schengen. "A long stay visa or residence permit issued by a member state allows a travel or stay in other Schengen States, while RESPECTING the maximum duration of a Short Stay Visa" my capitals.

As permanent Resident of Sweden I absolutely cannot have a short stay visa because I would have to obey the law regarding a short stay visa and leave the country and Schengen after 90 days. Needless to say if I cannot have a short stay visa I can RESPECT it as much as I like but I do NOT have to obey it. I do NOT have a short stay visa so I am NOT BOUND BY IT. It is as I say a house of cards. The problem in Schengen is that there is only ONE Schengen. A resident is allowed to stay in that ONE schengen for 360/360 however much it disturbs the elegence of a law they would like it to be. One day they may fix it but I guess it will be impossible witjout bringing down the house of cards.

Edit. As far as I know I do not have a long stay visa. Or any visa. But I do have residence in a Schengen State. It is a fudge to imply that I need a short stay visa to visit other schengen states. If that was the law I would need to have my passport stamped between states like other short stay visa holders. But guess what. FoM inside Schengen has no procedure for it. YET.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Laugh as much as you like 376, forge your own chains if you like. I have a Swedish Wife and our daughter was born here. I argue this case to counter the arguments of others like you who would like to wallow in their own exclusive situation. Or at least I did argue and I stopped because of that offensive, to me, gleefull obedience to non existant laws.