Why Lie about Sailing Quals?

[AlJones]

Had a phone call from one of my instructors today.

Two pupils aboard today, stated on their sailing experience form that we send out, that they have done their Day Skipper theory course.

It has become evident that they have not a clue about tidal heights, CTS, or even buoyage!!

Taking into account that there are three others aboard also doing a course, they are holding everything up. My view is that they do their Comp Crew course, instead then do a Theory course and then come back and do a practical course.

I asked what kind of experience they have actually had. And although they have put that the Guy had lots of experience, and as skipper, it turned out that he has sailed a Dinghy a few times, and his Lady, who said she was above Comp Crew level, actually has never been on a Cruising yacht of any size before.

I ask the Panel, as skippers themselves, if a crew member lied about their experience, and you had taken them at their word and put them as a watch leader, how would you re-do your watch and station bill?

Would you be as pissed of as I am at the mo? I feel I have let my instructor down.

Al. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[benjenbav]

People lie about all sorts of things. Some of them don't know when they're doing it.

You should take people like me who, if asked, would say that I have no sailing qualifications, and then remember that in fact I do. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess you'll be that bit more cynical next time, so no-one will win.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

Yes. I would be peed off too. The main thing about teaching, possibly in any field, is that you need to know what your students need to learn. If they lied about their experience, then how on earth do you know where to start teaching! You have to back-track and cover things you maybe don't have the time to do, because of the others on the course.

It's a breach of their contract with you.

Thats why I rather like the concept of "taster" or assessment days for new students.

 

[Searush]

Why should YOU feel you have let down the instructor? How could you check their quals? Should you ask for proof of quals in future?

Most people have an exaggerated opinion of their own abilities. The best have a poor opinion of themselves and then perform far beyond their percieved abilities.

 

[MoodySabre]

You haven't let your instructor down - you have been lied to and had no way of knowing that.

Once the skipper knows that people haven't got any worthwhile experience he can't leave them as watch leaders or the whole crew and boat are put at risk. He should take the offenders to one side and give them the choice of done Comp Crew, becoming galley slaves or getting off the boat with no refund.

I don't know how you could prevent this unless you ask for references for people that don't have certificates to show what they done.

Frustrating but more than that there is potential danger that these idiots don't even know enough to be aware of.

 

[AlJones]

Thanks guys, you've made me feel less angry now. 'Pissed off-ness' justified I feel.

I mustn't be any more cynical
I mustn't be any more cynical
I mustn't be any more cynical

Being an ex-copper of quite a few years experience I rarely trust anyone, so I mustn't get worse than I already am.

I have asked the instructor to explain that they are a million miles from being able to obtain their desired qualification, through no fault of the school or instructor. He has shown them what would be required to make a passage plan, they hadn't a clue. He pointed out a north cardinal whilst on passage and asked them what it was, again not a Scoobey. They kind of realised themselves how far behind they were. Thank goodness. Roll on the next course!!!

 

[AlJones]

My reason for feeling that I have let down the Instructor is because I understand the amount of mental pre-planning that goes into a course. Tina provides a synopsis on each student from their booking forms, and a sailing experience form on each for the instructor. This helps the instructor to understand a level of where to pitch the instruction. Then at the eleventh hour he has to change and start all over again, in front off them, instead off utilising the short amount of time to cover the syllabus, for five pupil's.

I am sure you can see why I feel peeved for the instructor. Which in hindsight, is how I should have explained my feelings in the first place. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Al.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]

Had a phone call from one of my instructors today.

Two pupils aboard today, stated on their sailing experience form that we send out, that they have done their Day Skipper theory course.

It has become evident that they have not a clue about tidal heights, CTS, or even buoyage!!

Taking into account that there are three others aboard also doing a course, they are holding everything up. My view is that they do their Comp Crew course, instead then do a Theory course and then come back and do a practical course.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is becoming a real issue. We say that without DS theory we won't accept them on a DS practical over the normal prescribed period. It's a question that we ask right up front! We only take 3 on our DS practical courses so there is less stress in terms of imparting the theory, but it should be a top up, not having to explain CTS, EP or even how to use a plotter.

I can understand the issue with the instructor but you need to give him/her 100% support. Comp crew is the best you can do, in our case Helmsman is the fall back, but at the end of the day they are only fooling themselves.

We get people wanting to do YM prep and the exam, we now send them a detailed set of notes on what is required and what is expected of them, particularly the theory. Why? Because even after asking about their expereince they arrive sadly lacking and then wonder why they fail. We will also tell students that they should not even do the exam. Prepping is one thing, starting from scratch is another.

[ QUOTE ]
I asked what kind of experience they have actually had. And although they have put that the Guy had lots of experience, and as skipper, it turned out that he has sailed a Dinghy a few times, and his Lady, who said she was above Comp Crew level, actually has never been on a Cruising yacht of any size before.

[/ QUOTE ]

What more can you do? They don't get the certificate. After all it's not an attendance course!

 

[mikejames]

There are scientific papers published about this : how the most unskilled are unaware how bad they are .

http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf



and the MAIB report on 'Last Call' is informative in this area.

 

[AlJones]

Thanks for your words Dave.

It is a pain in the Pozzy isn't it?

I note that you know John Mendez, ask him about how we run our school, he is very complimentary, having carried out our inspection for approved schools three times now. He knows, as I am sure you understand, that even when you dot all 'i's' and cross all 't's', some pupils try and skirt under the radar.

I agree with you, Comp Crew is all they can get, deserve!

I also agree with the Prep course, we also send out a level of competence that would be required/ expected for a pupil to sit an exam. It does sort out some 'chaff'. I feel it also wakes up those who thought they knew it all. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers again Dave.

Al.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

[ QUOTE ]
There are scientific papers published about this : how the most unskilled are unaware how bad they are .



[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly how "bad" I am. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

And if you doubt my word, just ask my ex.

 

[AlJones]

How bloody true is that? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I, much to my old skippers (Police) annoyance, would always state that I knew less than I really did, that way I would be taught old facts/skills that I really needed 'refreshing'. As a trainer in boating industry and also another field for the Police/MOD, I find that those who have been doing their job for anything upto 14 years in one particular case stated on their course feed back form that it was the best course that they had been on, and that they suddenly realised how much they had actually forgotten!!!!

 

[Searush]

The more I know, the more I realise how little I know . . .

Famous quote; don't know who by, but a fellow (and very experienced) consultant used to use it often. He also used to say, "You don't know what you don't know until you know it!" You need to think about that a bit, but it is quite profound!

 

[Seagreen]

"Why lie about sailing quals?"

Because stupid people don't think far ahead, and really stupid people don't think at all. I assume that these two wanted to "get ahead" in the sport without putting the effort in, and thought (in as far as they did) that it wouldn't matter. It doesn't mean they are venal, just dim.

I think the instructor, or really you (I assume you are the boss here) ought to tactfully point out to these two that they are obviously out of their depth and ought to go to Comp. Crew just to get a handle on the basics - book them in at their next convenience but get them off that course. A quiet word about the danger they have put themselves in, and others, my save a lot of grief in the long run. You never know, it may actually make them think...

 

[absit_omen]

I recently posted asking for recomendations for my 'Timid SWMBO' to do her Day Skipper Course. Your School was strongly backed.

I checked your website and this is what you say:

"Ideally, you will have completed your Day Skipper Theory course, and have some limited practical experience.

However, if you already have some sailing and navigation experience, you may be able to take Day Skipper as your first practical course."

This fits my SWMBO profile.

However, judging by the content and tone of your statements it would appear that you are expecting Competent Crew plus Day Skipper Theory qualifications. The words 'ideally' and 'limited' do not seem to figure. You also appear to be suggesting that a pupil should be able to assume the role of Watch Leader straight away. It is precisely this sort of assumption which has, and will, put off the more timorous and less 'bigged up' egocentric students.

Please clarify.

 

[Stevie_T]

Taken from RYA Cruising Logbook
[ QUOTE ]
Course: Day Skipper Practical (yacht)
Suggested minimum pre-course experience: 5 days, 100 miles, 4 night hours
Assumed knowledge: Basic navigation and sailing ability

[/ QUOTE ]

Basic Navigation I would say means having at least a rough idea of how to plot a CTS and an EP, or at least what they are. An idea of what a secondary port is and possibly how to work out the differences. What a pilotage plan is. How to take a 3 point fix.
The above don't need to be finely honed skills, but at least an appreciation of them is a bare minimum I would say.

Basic sailing ability I would have thought means being able to helm in a straight line, follow a compass course, keep a good look out, a basic appreciation of where the wind is coming from, the difference between a tack and a gybe.

When I used to instruct it was very frustrating, on many many Day skipper courses there would be at least one candidate who had not got a clue, and I ended up having to teach day skipper theory as well as practical which just served to hold everybody else back. I would expect to have to get people to practice the skills they had only ever done on paper, this is how it should be, but not to have no idea at all.

Many were dinghy sailors, a great way to learn of course but because they could sail competent crew was probably too basic for them, but they really needed to do the theory course or aquire the basic skills some other way.

Much of the time the school was to blame, allowing them through, it was a comercial enterprise after all and they wanted the bookings. At least this was the case at the school I worked at the time.

There is no requirement within the RYA to have completed any prior course, to allow you to take a particular course or exam even at yachtmaster level, but you are required to have the equivalent experience something which is not policed enough imo.

Anteak, if your wife has not the equivalent knowledge of Day Skipper theory I would suggest she enrols on a course, it is an enjoyable course and will make the practical course a lot more relevant and enjoyable too

 

[AndrewB]

Weren't we all there one time, specially when young, exaggerating our skills in the hopes of gaining a golden opportunity? And frustrated by the scepticism of our elders and betters? Or sometimes it came off and then it was sink or swim?

I appreciate that the situation here is bit different. But in the case of a sailing school, the bottom line is that these people have come to you for a worthwhile experience, and (presumably) are paying you in expectation of this. Assess what they are capable of, and fit them in where they can best achieve something. Your own training should have included ways for how this can be accomplished. Once the customers, specially the more clueless ones, start irritating the hell out of you, its time to get out of instructing.

(On your question to us, most skippers I know would never RELY on the claimed abilities of scratch crew they didn't know, even if they were fresh off the America's Cup!).

 

[jwilson]

On a slightly different note I was once skippering a sailing school boat with a mixed bunch of crew. On the first passage I quickly found that one was a rather good helm, keeping the boat nicely in the groove to windward. With him at the tiller and no other boats or shallows that would worry us within about a mile I went down to the chart table. Came up three minutes or so later to find a big steel navigation buoy about 20 feet off the bow at 5-6 knots.

Hurled myself at the tiller and just managed to S-bend our way round it, missing the topsides by inches. I had to 'S' as a straight luff would have swung our stern into it.

Apologised for grabbing the tiller from him, and pointed out that we'd nearly hit the buoy, at which point the excellent helm admitted that he was near blind.....

 

[alant]

one of my instructors today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you 'cheating on me already Al?
Bloody hell, out of the house 5 mins & you've got another in! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

"I rarely trust anyone, so I mustn't get worse than I already am."
You mean you could get worse?? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

"would always state that I knew less than I really did,"

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

PS - Give Tina a cuddle & tell her its from me (make her day /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Seriously though, Tina's paperwork for those joining a course is usually very detailed. However, even with her obvious interrogation skills (rubber hose of course), pupils will tell fibs. Their DS Theory course often means they have just read Tom Cunliffes book (if your lucky). With one, possible to just get away without affecting others on the course, but a nuisance. More than one ruins it for rest!

Perhaps, you could get the RYA to tighten up on their recommendations. Also means more business for schools following the rules perhaps. I would like to see concrete logbook evidence of experience prior to DS course (eg mandatory Comp crew first practical) & DS theory cert produced on joining.

 

[shmoo]

[ QUOTE ]

have done their Day Skipper theory course.


[/ QUOTE ]
[...but...]
[ QUOTE ]

It has become evident that they have not a clue about tidal heights, CTS, or even buoyage!!


[/ QUOTE ]

I am afraid it is quite possible for both of these to be true and for the person not to have lied. Candidates only have to complete the course, not understand any of it.