Why Lie about Sailing Quals?

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]
Taken from RYA Cruising Logbook
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Course: Day Skipper Practical (yacht)
Suggested minimum pre-course experience: 5 days, 100 miles, 4 night hours
Assumed knowledge: Basic navigation and sailing ability

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I cant find this quote in my copy of the logbook (2003) but the RYA's definition of basic navigation skills as shown by the BNS course does not include course to steer. Nor does it include EPs. You might argue that it should, but it doesnt.

Nor as one commentator said does the RYA system allow for practical DS instructors to exclude those who have not done a DS shorebased. The DS practical is described in the Instructors Handbook as a "beginners course which does for skippers what the competent crew course does for crew. ............ People who have never skippered a yacht should attend this course................... min pre course experience is that which would be gained on a compe crew course ......... nav ability should be that required to draw an EP (there's consistency for you) "

The book goes on to say "over estimation of ability is not too much of a problem on this course" !

I sympathise with the practical instructor who has to teach students at different standards, but the RYA course scheme is so sloppy that this is inevitable even if candidates dont lie about their background. IMHO it should be an absolute requirement that candidates have done the theory course but it isnt at the mo and you should not demand it.

The whole issue isnt helped because there are no clear pass standards for DS theory anyway. At my instructors course it was made clear to me (amongst many other things) that the DS theory was a beginners course and to encourage people to progress we should not fail candidates except where they had poor attendance / poor committment to the course (or very rarely they were complete and utter numpties). In other words, doing an incorrrect EP or CTS was not a fail. As it happens, all understood them or the course was simply extended until they did, but this approach cant be taken in a commercial environment.

I reckon the RYA does a damn good job for sailors and the training scheme is a damn good scheme. But maybe its time for the overall course structure to be reviewed, simplified, and made both more consistent and a bit more rigorous.

 

[AlJones]

Not Cheating Pardre, just a bit of variety, you know that must happen!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Exaggeratting, eh?
[____________________________________________], now thats 9 inches isn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

One we may of got away with, but two! Nah!

There have been some great coments on here for us as a business. The explination from Hannabella is right on the money for me!

I wouldn't expect to see passed quals from Steve, Searush, He knows and understands navigation, point of sail, ROTR, But I would just keep an eye on him for the first while, to make sure, /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I had three on for a prep week and YM exam last year. All known to me, two lads of 21, who I have raced with hundreds of times aboard their yachts, and a forty four year old ex-class four watch Officer that I crewed for on yachts for about six years, one of those trtips was a yacht to Lacorona. Now, The lads have done a YM Theory with us, one having done his DS theory six months earlier. The Dad of one of them, the watch officer, why check his quals when his knowledge was way above expected, and having in his log in excess of 300,000 sea miles. Not even the worn and faded sailing gear got him off a practical demonstration of his skills to the instructor for his peice of mind.

Some people just make me sigh!

See you soon Daddy!!!
( You get bored of Lamb if you have it all the time!!)

 

[Twister_Ken]

"You get bored of Lamb if you have it all the time!"

Welsh, are you?

 

[Stevie_T]

Wotayottie
You make some good points. I would argue however that it should include EP and CTS and in fact if i quote my copy of instructors handbook.
[ QUOTE ]
The suggested minimum pre-course experience is that which would be gained on the Competent Crew course. The assumed knowledge is defined as basic navigation and sailing ability. The navigation ability should be that required to draw an EP, have a reasonable idea of tidal heights and tidal streams, basic chartwork and seamanship. The Day Skipper shore-based course obviously gives ideal training.
Sailing abilty can be defined as being able to sail a boat around a traingular course one leg of which is to windward. Gybing should not be a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it also states ' over estimation of ability is not too much of a problem on this course' with which I would agree, an instructor wouldn't expect too much at this level, but there is a difference between that and no knowledge whatsoever.

I think though that the fault often lies at the door of the RYA or the schools though, rather than the candidate in not making it clear what is required.
It is of course a fine line between advising the best approach and discouraging them from taking the course.

Another point of note perhaps is that nobody ever 'fails' a Day Skipper course. It is a modular course and therefore you either complete all the modules or you don't. You then have the opportunity to come back for (say) a weekend and working through the remaining modules. This, in theory at least allows the instructor to advise on gaining some further experience before returning to finish.
It has to be handled carefully, and is important to point out how much they have learnt rather than what they were unable to accomplish otherwise a string of complaints against the instructor sometimes follows.

 

[AlJones]

We are very Welsh!

 

[alant]

We are very Welsh!
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We????

This being the Royal 'We' of course ? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Norman_E]

I have a slightly different take on this. It appears from your post that all five trainees on the boat are doing the day skipper course (or are some doing coastal skipper?). My own view is that the two schools I did courses with had the right idea. The first (at Hamble) was where I took Comp Crew. On that course there were four of us, three of us taking comp crew and one doing day skipper. This had the big advantage that because we were a mixed group the comp crew candidates could do appropriate jobs, whilst the guy doing day skipper had more time each to be "in charge", and relatively inexperienced people to crew for them, which in itself is good experience. I thought that was a good way to run couses, because each group received plenty of practice in the skills they needed to acquire. In particular the day skipper received plenty of boat handling practice at MOB and picking up moorings, and could do his pilotage with the comp crew helming for them. Three and two (either way round) would be a good combination IMHO.

After that I went to a school on the Medway for a theory course (actually Yachtmaster Theory) and after that took day skipper with them. They knew that everyone on that course had appropriate experience and knowledge, because they had checked.

I think in the situation you describe the two who have insufficient knowledge and experience should be offered the choice of the comp crew syllabus or leaving the course.

For the future I can only suggest that you do ask for proof of past courses, and consider the idea of mixing comp crew and day skipper candidates on the same course.

 

[curve]

Actually I think it would be better to have two comp crew and to day skipper thereby the day skippers can also have time to watch others and reflect and not always under pressure to be in charge.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

have only skimmed over this, and may have missed if somebody has already made my point ....

If they say the have done DS theory, surely they should be able to show their certificate, before you accept them on the practical course - either when they book, or on arrival.

Re your question, how to deal with a crew member who has lied ...... obviously this can arise quite easily in the commercial arena but on a private yacht, I wouldnt get into that situation.

Having been once bitten (by a bullsh!tter) I am now twice shy. I either take only people I know, or are well known to other friends, or I get together in advance of the trip with the person, and make I get to know them. Both sides can choose to decline - but nobody has, yet!

 

[AlJones]

Never assume, it's dangerous!!

Three comp crew and 'Two Day Skippers' on this course.

In an ideal world, you can get to see quals and pupils prior to the start of the course, but we don't live in an ideal world.

I also took my sailing quals with a school on the Hamble, 7 years ago, I was never asked for any quals certs, just asked of my previous experience and went straight in and did my coastal skipper and exam. All those years in the Royal Navy serving me well I feel.

Coastal skipper pupil's and Day Skipper pupils on the same course are a difficult combination. Mix them with comp crew, who also helm for MOB's coming along side under power and sail, mooring buoys, and ferry gliding, sailing a triangle etc.

Organising these courses is not Plain Sailing, The mix and matching that goes on, the dietary requirements, the "I would like my own cabin" request's, The strangest other request's that can only be heard at sea.

Pupils arrive from all over the country to the Solent for their courses, The RYA have complimented Tina on her paper work on many occasions. The booking forms, the Client experience forms, medical conditions, dietary requirements, special arrangements required, etc. I'm not saying we're the only school that goes further than the RYA ask of us, but were or how far from wiping arses do we stop?

Some one made the point earlier, Getting the RYA tp tighten up on schools for giving out certs for turning up on a course. We have had Coastal Skipper pupils turn up who did their Day Skipper not more than a month earlier, and have frightening low knowledge as a skipper, alant was their instructor whilst they were with us, and he was amazed at their lack of knowledge and skill, yet they hold the ticket!!!

Many people hold tickets/ licences to do lots of things and aren't really that good. Look at the roads every day we are on them, we all come across idiots out there, it's just a pain when we have them to teach and you find that they are the "yeah! But I do it like this" Brigade!!!

 

[narooma]

We are very Welsh!
We????

Shouldn't it be the sheep and I.....!

 

[photodog]

Off thread here I know, Do you guys have a MG335 in your fleet? Didnt see it listed on your site, but saw one in NF last night (Sat) with some lads on board, could have sworn in had a atsailing sail cover on....

 

[tomdroyal1980]

I don't see the problem. You've got two paying customers. They have to accept that they only have themselves to blame. The instructor should be able to divide the training fairly so nobody else loses out.

You get some cash, they get a week on a boat. If they fail they might come back for a second course, if they pass they'll tell all their mates that you school took them from being non-sailors to nautical leaders of men in only one week.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]



I note that you know John Mendez,

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Ah just a bit! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif And yes I do know he's done your inspections. Oh BTW, it's JON as in Jonathan.

 

[dom]

Because others lie and one can then get held up by them.

At a favourite ski resort the mountain guides often refer to the Euro 60 per minute and Euro 250 scrambling charge for a helicopter to rescue a scared skier and point to the fact that it occurs about once a week.

Seems to work better than asking people for honest answers!

 

[AlJones]

(NF ? Sorry, haven't a clue and to tired to try and guess /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif)


No we don't have a MG335, the only one out this weekend was a Sigma38.

They were in East Cowes last night, rafted three out!

Then back to Haslar tonight! As it turned out, The Lad was quite switched on and got hold of where to find the info, and to prepare a reasonable passage plan. So what we have got is a fairly happy lad who understands our position and why that competent crew a better plan for him. His lady, hasn't got a clue.

So there we go a situation came up we discussed it on here as well as between the couple and the school, and we have an understandable conclusion.

Al.

 

[wotayottie]

So after much posting it all ends happily ever after. And a good publicity airing for the sailing school as well - or is that a bit too cynical. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[alant]

We are very Welsh!
We????

Shouldn't it be the sheep and I.....!

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/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Is this 'sheep' singular, or multiple partners sense?

A wooly 'jumper' perhaps!

 

[maxi77]

Having had a quick skim through no one seems to have addressed the "why". Perhaps it is simply they have a charter planned somewhere hot and will need an ICC. Day Skipper will give them an ICC. Perhaps they could be asked if they plan to charter in the near future.

As for mixed skipper and crew courses haing done on like that when I did my Coastal Skipper a year or so ago I think it is a good idea, the skipper candidates have to work with people who do not understand everything thus have to explain what needs done and why, a far better test of ones skill and knowledge than doing the text book type stuff.

I might add I was not short on qualls and experience having been sailing on and off for over 40 years, having both RN Bridge Watchkeeping and Ocean Navigation certificates, having all the shorebased certificate and having owned my own yacht for nearly 10 years. I actuall needed an ICC for a Greek charter, and my RN paperwork only gave ne a power ICC

 

[sky7liner]

I'm a newcomer (intro to yachting last Oct and Comp Crew in May) but even on the intro I was stunned at the lack of knowledge of somebody who was going to do a DS course the following week. (He'd joined the intro to yachting as a refresher before doing DS.)

I think the problem is that these people don't realise how dangerous a game sailing can be. Second time out I was on a yacht that rammed a navigation buoy and, had it not been a calm sea, would have been in serious trouble. As a result, I have a great deal more respect for the level of knowledge and experience needed to be safe at sea.

Perhaps the school in question needs to review their Ts & Cs to say, in effect, if you've lied to us, the skipper can downgrade the qualification for which you have enrolled or tip you off the boat altogether.