paul salliss
Well-Known Member
JRudge nailed it perfectly.
Why is the UK leisure marine market dominated by oversized luxury motor yachts?
- Thread starter Sea Master
- Start date
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
JRudge nailed it I should have said re Deleted User's post
mjf
Well-Known Member
Deleted User
"We are already seeing the creeping roll out of low emission zones on land so it wont be long before some econutter dreams up the idea that diesel exhaust fumes are killing seahorses and we'll start getting low emission zones at sea as well and then we're all stuffed"
We have had many years of low sulphur fuel areas so commercial ships had to carry several different grades of fuel if they wished to be commercially viable.
Several cruise ship terminals now insist on shore power when alongside.........
"We are already seeing the creeping roll out of low emission zones on land so it wont be long before some econutter dreams up the idea that diesel exhaust fumes are killing seahorses and we'll start getting low emission zones at sea as well and then we're all stuffed"
We have had many years of low sulphur fuel areas so commercial ships had to carry several different grades of fuel if they wished to be commercially viable.
Several cruise ship terminals now insist on shore power when alongside.........
stelican
Well-Known Member
I can't begin to visualise the size of the shore power cable!
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Depends what anyone means by oversized and luxury. I was poking around a heritage collection at the w/e and found a Trabant caravan which had the crapper next the dining table with no screen. No doubt someone thought that was luxury.
Boating is a small minority interest in the UK, limited by geography and inclination and further limited by time and money. If you happen to like boats and work weeks on an average salary you are always more likely to be sailing a Laser round a gravel pit on a Sunday morning than inviting a Kardashian to join you on Yacht A.
If, OTOH, you have access to a bar or so that you aren't using for anything else and you happen to like boating then you won't be spending it on a manmade cave (aka any sailing boat below 25m), nor on the Trabbie caravan. So what's the choice: spunk it on some real estate by the sea or buy a mobo that you can actually swing a cat on?
Boating is a small minority interest in the UK, limited by geography and inclination and further limited by time and money. If you happen to like boats and work weeks on an average salary you are always more likely to be sailing a Laser round a gravel pit on a Sunday morning than inviting a Kardashian to join you on Yacht A.
If, OTOH, you have access to a bar or so that you aren't using for anything else and you happen to like boating then you won't be spending it on a manmade cave (aka any sailing boat below 25m), nor on the Trabbie caravan. So what's the choice: spunk it on some real estate by the sea or buy a mobo that you can actually swing a cat on?
petem
Well-Known Member
I must say that this thread and the other by the OP, feel like plants to generate some journalistic content.
Cheery
Well-Known Member
If they scrapped all motor yachts tonight I wouldn't have thought that the CO2 savings would be noticeable on a global scale. This needs to be factored into the equation when comparing cars, buses and lorries. That said, if 'xyz' engine manufacturer came along with an engine which doubled the efficiency of their previous model, I am sure there would be a few boat builders who would be more than happy to offer them as an option. It's not just a matter of fuel saving either, instead of 400 miles before you need to think about filling up but 800 and then you can travel further if you so wish.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
I d wonder how long it is before we see a really viable large electric motoryacht. I know greenline do hybrids but as has been shown in cars hybrids don't really work.
The work Tesla are doing on batteries means useful 300-400KWh battery banks will soon weight no more than a couple of 12cylinder diesels and take up about the same amount of space. Electric motors produce 100% torque from the get go so actually quite suited to the application
The work Tesla are doing on batteries means useful 300-400KWh battery banks will soon weight no more than a couple of 12cylinder diesels and take up about the same amount of space. Electric motors produce 100% torque from the get go so actually quite suited to the application
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
Electric motorcycles are fab. KTM's off road range is highly competitive. The IOM TT has a class for electric bikes called TT Zero. The bikes are amazing. I know as I have ridden one. Appreciate there is little weight in a motorcycle so it's not a direct comparison of course to boats. Can't think why there is no small boat 20 / 30 footer in electric yet. They should start a race class for electric power boats. That would create waves in the market perhaps
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
its a cost and weight thing guys. EV batteries are still hugely expensive, although gradually reducing in cost as manufacturing capacity is increased. Engine/trans/batt cost in an EV is about 75% of parts costs, compared to 25% for an ic engine/trans/fuel/exhaust. Simple maths.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
No you're probably right but you could say exactly the same thing about the specialist construction machines that my company supplies but we still get caught by the emissions standards regulations in the UK. The argument will be that whilst applying emissions standards to individual industries on their own makes hardly any difference, if they are applied to a whole bunch of individual industries, then that does make a difference
jfm
Well-Known Member
Hang on though Jez. 800kwh is roughly 80 litres of diesel fuel (diesel is ballpark 10Kwh per litre). On a boat big enough to need 2x v12s, that will run the genset for a couple of days, or give say 6 miles range at planing speed. Such is the difference in energy density between fuel oil and batteries: it is not a multiple it's a couple of orders of magnitude.
Let me express it in weight for my 2x v12 boat: I have say 7 tonnes of fuel (7500 litres) and would save 5 tonnes if got rid of the engines and got ultra light electric motors. 12 tonnes total saving. Lets put Tesla batteries in, which are ballpark 550kg for 85Kwh. 12 tonnes means 22 batteries, which is 1870Kwh, which is broadly 200 litres of diesel worth of energy. 200 litres of fuel is a joke compared with 7500. The numbers are 2 orders of magnitude away from stacking up.
I appreciate the energy conversion efficiency has to be applied and I don't have the data, but even if the electric motors are 3x as efficient as diesel (to make a generous assumption) it doesn't change the practical answer (my boat's 200 litres above becomes 600 litres, still a nonsensical number)
Separately, in a boat, having max torque at zero rpm (=an electric motor) is not much of an advantage. It is in a train, but not a boat
maby
Well-Known Member
Hybrid does work quite well in cars because the load on a car engine tends to fluctuate quite frequently in normal use and the presence of the hybrid systems help to even it out and allow the engine to run close to peak efficiency most of the time. Hybrid will never work well in boats because there is not the same fluctuation in load on the drive train - you leave your berth (or raise the anchor), throttle up and then run for an hour or more at high throttle opening till you get close to your destination. The battery in the hybrid system will be flat within five or ten minutes after which it is just dead weight that you are lugging along with you.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Agreed. Not only that but regenerative braking is a major part of the car hybrid system and of course that doesn't exist with a boat. And as jfm has pointed out there will have to be a step change in battery storage density before the whole system makes any sense anyway
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
I think when we go into Co2 nos and motor boating its a nill ie. non existent. What do all Motor boats do in Co2 annually, less to 1% I guess.
But if you like to bang your wall with bureaucracy here you go.
But hang on to be straight there is already a rather strict rule for emissions which is the US EPA Marine Tier 3, based but a bit stricter to IMO Tier 3 for ships.
So the rules do exist as they have been in the last ten years.
Just to show you how complicated it gets, Man is actually in a hurdle atm because its new i6 800 and 730hp series are a bit longer then the R6 and are made to be switched ASAP for Tier 4
But these new Man engines are a bit longer then Volvo D13 900hp for example which is the main competitor here. So what are they gonna do?
So lets say it this way emissions and economy are not a problem of most builders, it is the engine makers and some engineers which come with the product for builders to implement.
At least most of them do this way, with a small exception to some of the Italian builders who when coming from a strong period between end nineties till 2008 invested some of those resources in innovative hull making, read Azimut Magellano or the badly used Mochi Long Range from the Ferretti Group.
To be fair most of the interest for this from Azimut came from internal competition and when they saw a couple small builder growing up with that product, which was the case with Estensi who was selling about ten Maine models a year in the period between 2007 and 9, or Terranova which also sold about half a dozen of its 68 model.
It is a different market the Italian, most people look at everything there, they explore with interest.
As I see it most Brits if say they have a Princess will look possibly at a Fairline and at a Sunseeker, and this circle just turns around.
With Italian French Greece owners people see things different and people blow less wind to there own Windmill.
As for growing bigger luxury sized yachts it is where the market have been going in recent years and does not seem to want to stop.
Hulls in most planning boats have not changed since decades as well, so I can see the frustration of some here, there is no real novelty in the boat show.
But why break what is working for that I do not blame them. But for not trying a new market when they are riding high the wave that they might regret it.
But if you like to bang your wall with bureaucracy here you go.
But hang on to be straight there is already a rather strict rule for emissions which is the US EPA Marine Tier 3, based but a bit stricter to IMO Tier 3 for ships.
So the rules do exist as they have been in the last ten years.
Just to show you how complicated it gets, Man is actually in a hurdle atm because its new i6 800 and 730hp series are a bit longer then the R6 and are made to be switched ASAP for Tier 4
But these new Man engines are a bit longer then Volvo D13 900hp for example which is the main competitor here. So what are they gonna do?
So lets say it this way emissions and economy are not a problem of most builders, it is the engine makers and some engineers which come with the product for builders to implement.
At least most of them do this way, with a small exception to some of the Italian builders who when coming from a strong period between end nineties till 2008 invested some of those resources in innovative hull making, read Azimut Magellano or the badly used Mochi Long Range from the Ferretti Group.
To be fair most of the interest for this from Azimut came from internal competition and when they saw a couple small builder growing up with that product, which was the case with Estensi who was selling about ten Maine models a year in the period between 2007 and 9, or Terranova which also sold about half a dozen of its 68 model.
It is a different market the Italian, most people look at everything there, they explore with interest.
As I see it most Brits if say they have a Princess will look possibly at a Fairline and at a Sunseeker, and this circle just turns around.
With Italian French Greece owners people see things different and people blow less wind to there own Windmill.
As for growing bigger luxury sized yachts it is where the market have been going in recent years and does not seem to want to stop.
Hulls in most planning boats have not changed since decades as well, so I can see the frustration of some here, there is no real novelty in the boat show.
But why break what is working for that I do not blame them. But for not trying a new market when they are riding high the wave that they might regret it.
westernman
Well-Known Member
The concern for the new regulations (RCD-II and EPA Tier IV) is not CO2 but mainly NOx and particulate emissions.
The NOx requirements in particular are a challenge. Many engines for RCD-II and EPA Tier IV will require adblue and currently the regulations require that in the event of a lack of adblue, that the engine will not start.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
In European and US industry we are already beyond Tier 3B/4i which generally forced engines to be fitted with diesel particulate filters and we are now on to Tier 4 Final which has forced manufacturers to fit both diesel particular filters and adblue injection systems. And yes you're right. The general thrust of emissions regulations so far has been NOx reductions and the move towards CO2 reductions hasn't even started. Diesel particulate filters in particular have proved very problematic and Caterpillar have faced a class action in the USA on behalf of disgruntled customers with they recently settled for USD 60m. And yes if the engine runs out of adblue or the diesel particulate filter fails to regenerate, the whole engine has to shut down
I'm not saying it will happen but it would only take a stroke of a bureaucrat's pen to lump marine leisure engines with industrial engines
henryf
Well-Known Member
Given most boat engines are essentially lorry engines engines do the maths.
Our CAT C12 lumps do 100-200 hours a year. Double that because there a 2. I guess a lorry does 2,500-3,000 hours per year and there are thousands of trucks for every boat.
Ultimately it's the trucks which cause the pollution and which drive emission controls. I remember those stinky old 63P lumps when they fired up. The current engines and the D6 which preceded them don't give a puff when fired up.
If we had to run particulate filters and pop in some adblue would it really make that much difference?
Henry
Our CAT C12 lumps do 100-200 hours a year. Double that because there a 2. I guess a lorry does 2,500-3,000 hours per year and there are thousands of trucks for every boat.
Ultimately it's the trucks which cause the pollution and which drive emission controls. I remember those stinky old 63P lumps when they fired up. The current engines and the D6 which preceded them don't give a puff when fired up.
If we had to run particulate filters and pop in some adblue would it really make that much difference?
Henry
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westernman
Well-Known Member
Given most boat engines are essentially lorry engines engines do the maths.
Our CAT C12 lumps do 100-200 hours a year. Double that because there a 2. I guess a lorry does 2,500-3,000 hours per year and there are thousands of trucks for every boat.
Ultimately it's the trucks which cause the pollution and which drive emission controls. I remember those stinky old 63P lumps when they fired up. The current engines and the D6 which preceded them don't give a puff when fired up.
If we had to run particulate filters and pop in some adblue would it really make that much difference?
Henry
Yes, it is other applications which create the most pollution. But it is likely at some stage that boats will be stuck with the same standards as on road applications (i.e. trucks). Currently RCD 2 which is now in force requires Tier 3 from this year for new marine engines, but it does not take much imagination that it could be upped to Tier 4 or whatever is required for trucks.
And yes it would be a pain to have particulate filters and adblue on a boat. Particularly when you do a long run at low speed, the filter clogs and the engine shuts down just as you are maneuvering through through a reef or a rocky passage in a gale to get to the port. :dread:
jrudge
Well-Known Member
Just looked up ad blue
The injection rates is 2-6% of diesel.
On a 3500l boat that is between 70 and 210 ltrs per fill which suddenly mean a 500 odd litre tank!
On line 18 litres is £25, so between £100 and £300 of adblue.
Joy,
The injection rates is 2-6% of diesel.
On a 3500l boat that is between 70 and 210 ltrs per fill which suddenly mean a 500 odd litre tank!
On line 18 litres is £25, so between £100 and £300 of adblue.
Joy,