Why is the UK leisure marine market dominated by oversized luxury motor yachts?

[superheat6k]

For those exporting from UK plc, such as these makers of large White plastic fantastics, the recent fall in the £ has been excellent news, and their products are selling like hot cakes, although not too many of these > 50' will remain based in the UK. SIBS is a good opportunity for anyone with a boating interest to see what can be bought or at least dreamt of.

But there remains plenty of choice presently for us lesser mortals who not only have to work hard to support our obsessions, but also don't find enough time to use them properly.

My concern is that due to the economies of scale and the difficulty selling to the home market, within a few years the secondhand market will see a dearth of decent boats feeding the demand. Sealine, Fairline and Princess for instance no longer offer anything below 35', whereas they all started with selling much smaller boats. Yet many of us are happier with sub-35' boats, and certainly peak weekend berthing on the South Coast is far easier for shorter boats, and berthing fees and other on costs are less.

I guess the future will be more of the cheaper built imports, with ever increasing regulations being imposed via regulatory devices like the RCD to impose better fuel efficiency, which means non-displacement plodding. Still faster than the typical sailing boat and no beating to windward.

 

[ari]

You're right. The UK boat builders seem obsessed with big white gas guzzling planing boats to the exclusion of anything else. I went around SIBS and my overriding impression was that I've seen it all before. The French and Italian manufacturers are at least giving a passing nod to fuel efficiency by producing semi displacement cruising boats with smaller engines which are designed to operate at slower speeds. In the long run this industry is finished unless it can find a step change improvement in the fuel economy of its products and if fuel economy considerations don't finish it off, ever tighter emissions regulations and increasing environmental awareness probably will. The UK boat builders show no sign of recognising this. Maybe thats why they're all losing money

What are you basing this on? If Volvo Penta launch an engine that costs the same and produces the same power, but halves fuel consumption at planing speeds and all the 'big white boat' manufacturers start fitting it, what effect do you think that will have on sales? Do you think they would sell more boats?

 

[jfm]

..., what effect do you think that will have on sales? ...

Pretty much nil, imho.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

You're right. The UK boat builders seem obsessed with big white gas guzzling planing boats to the exclusion of anything else. I went around SIBS and my overriding impression was that I've seen it all before. The French and Italian manufacturers are at least giving a passing nod to fuel efficiency by producing semi displacement cruising boats with smaller engines which are designed to operate at slower speeds. In the long run this industry is finished unless it can find a step change improvement in the fuel economy of its products and if fuel economy considerations don't finish it off, ever tighter emissions regulations and increasing environmental awareness probably will. The UK boat builders show no sign of recognising this. Maybe thats why they're all losing money

It is not so simple as it seems. Slower is not always better in motor boating numbers.
See this link; http://www.baiayacht.it/en/eco.php And compare Ferretti Custom Line Navetta numbers.

I do agree the explorer market is a growing trend and has potential in market numbers, and I am sure the Azimut Magellano gives some pretty interesting numbers at cruise.
But then that is a whole R&D exercise.

British builders have been pretty slow to react to everything even with IPS pods, taking Sunseeker away from the equation was it 2014 when Princess and Fairline did a real IPS boat.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Pretty much nil, imho.

I think you are spot on. I would like a fifty sixty foot motor boat, and there is still a couple of good deals around.
What puts me off? Is not really fuel, it is more the marina and maintenance expense which in those sizes is about 15-20000 EUROS a year.
I think I can control fuel more or less. Without a cruise in Sicily this becomes more affordable.
The real big STOP sign is always Marina and maintenance fees.

 

[oldgit]

Perkins recently circulated a flyer.
http://www.mby.com/news/perkins-repower-rcd-ii-52469
Presume that some attempt is finally being made to bring marine emissions up to something approaching the land transport industry ?

 

[westernman]

Perkins recently circulated a flyer.
http://www.mby.com/news/perkins-repower-rcd-ii-52469
Presume that some attempt is finally being made to bring marine emissions up to something approaching the land transport industry ?

AFAIK it is the same regulations as the USA for Tier IV for offroad vehicules.

There is a risk that we will be having adblue tanks on new boats and forced engine shutdown (as is the current regulation for Euro-6 and for Tier IV offroad) if we run out of adblue.

 

[henryf]

Here's the thing.

It's not widely advertised but all Princess boats come with an eco switch. In our case that gives us a brim full to empty range of about 1,150 nautical miles from our 2,500 litre fuel tanks. This is on a 50 foot boat with 1,400 hp on tap from a pair of Cat C12 engines. If I use local tides to my advantage I can actually stretch that figure to an incredible 1,500 nautical miles.

This amazing switch is sometimes referred to as the throttle. At tickover we burn about 14 litres an hour between the 2 engines and cruise at 6.5 - 7 knots. We sometimes see over 9 knots when using the regular as clockwork tide that runs up and down the Solent.

The truth is that large planing boats offer owners the best of both worlds. If they want economy it's there, if they want to get somewhere quickly at the expense of fuel burn it's also there. Building a boat that only offers slow speed displacement cruising limits your market drastically.

I think a lot of people buy boats like Nordhavns then put them up for sale when they get caught out in a weather front they couldn't outrun or realise they don't actually have the time or inclination to spend 10 hours doing a run that otherwise might have taken them two and a half hours.

The point is owners can choose how they balance fuel usage and speed.

Henry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

What are you basing this on? If Volvo Penta launch an engine that costs the same and produces the same power, but halves fuel consumption at planing speeds and all the 'big white boat' manufacturers start fitting it, what effect do you think that will have on sales? Do you think they would sell more boats?

Its more a case of not selling fewer boats. Every new boat sale is supported by a chain of used boat sales that has to take place in order for that new boat buyer to buy his new boat. A new boat sale, like a house sale, is generally not just a stand alone transaction. If, as is very likely, fuel gets much more expensive in the future either because oil gets harder to find or, far more likely, govts load increasing amounts of duty on to it, those used boat buyers who are buying the new boat buyers cast offs will find it increasingly difficult to run them and if used boat sales are affected, then so are new boat sales. In any case and as I mentioned, fuel economy is only half of it. We are already seeing the creeping roll out of low emission zones on land so it wont be long before some econutter dreams up the idea that diesel exhaust fumes are killing seahorses and we'll start getting low emission zones at sea as well and then we're all stuffed. In every other industry involving internal combustion engines, fuel economy and emissions are becoming increasingly important. Whats so different about the power boat industry? As I say the industry ignores these long term trends at their peril.

Apart from the above, in the short term there is a whole bunch of baby boomer boaters out there who are coming up to retirement with the capital to buy new boats and the time to cruise them longer distances and many of those buyers either don't have the income to burn fuel at 2/3 gallons to the mile or simply don't want to. For these people, fuel economy is definitely a factor in their boat buying decision. The British boat builders have simply ignored this market and they're buying the likes of Swift Trawlers, Greenlines and Magellanos from French/Italian manufacturers and Flemings, Grand Banks and Traders from Asian manufacturers

 

[Firefly625]

..........
I think a lot of people buy boats like Nordhavns then put them up for sale when they get caught out in a weather front they couldn't outrun or realise they don't actually have the time or inclination to spend 10 hours doing a run that otherwise might have taken them two and a half hours.

The point is owners can choose how they balance fuel usage and speed.

Henry

....and maybe Nordhavn have woken up and smelt the coffee..... http://www.mby.com/news/nordhavn-59-coastal-pilot-gallery-52595

 

[henryf]

Apart from the above, in the short term there is a whole bunch of baby boomer boaters out there who are coming up to retirement with the capital to buy new boats and the time to cruise them longer distances and many of those buyers either don't have the income to burn fuel at 2/3 gallons to the mile or simply don't want to. For these people, fuel economy is definitely a factor in their boat buying decision. The British boat builders have simply ignored this market and they're buying the likes of Swift Trawlers, Greenlines and Magellanos from French/Italian manufacturers and Flemings, Grand Banks and Traders from Asian manufacturers

The Fleming 58 was about US$ 3.5 million plus Vat at the boat show - just under £2,700,000 plus Vat. A base spec Princess 60 is about £1,300,000 plus Vat & a base spec Princess 68 is about £1,800,000 plus Vat from memory. That does leave a little in the kitty to cover trips to the fuel berth. Both the 60 and 68 can be optioned with stabilisers and run very frugally at lower displacement speeds.

Henry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The Fleming 58 was about US$ 3.5 million plus Vat at the boat show - just under £2,700,000 plus Vat. A base spec Princess 60 is about £1,300,000 plus Vat & a base spec Princess 68 is about £1,800,000 plus Vat from memory. That does leave a little in the kitty to cover trips to the fuel berth. Both the 60 and 68 can be optioned with stabilisers and run very frugally at lower displacement speeds.

Not sure what the point of your post is Henry other than to big up Princess as usual. Pound for pound, the Fleming must be one of the most expensive boats on the planet so its not its not a fair comparison. Apart from that the Fleming is built to a much higher standard than any Princess. A far better comparison would be say a Swift Trawler 50 against a Princess 49 or a Magellano 66 against a Princess 68 and in both cases, the foreign boats undercut the British boats on price, even at todays appalling exchange rate

 

[jrudge]

Here's the thing.

It's not widely advertised but all Princess boats come with an eco switch. In our case that gives us a brim full to empty range of about 1,150 nautical miles from our 2,500 litre fuel tanks. This is on a 50 foot boat with 1,400 hp on tap from a pair of Cat C12 engines. If I use local tides to my advantage I can actually stretch that figure to an incredible 1,500 nautical miles.

This amazing switch is sometimes referred to as the throttle. At tickover we burn about 14 litres an hour between the 2 engines and cruise at 6.5 - 7 knots. We sometimes see over 9 knots when using the regular as clockwork tide that runs up and down the Solent.

The truth is that large planing boats offer owners the best of both worlds. If they want economy it's there, if they want to get somewhere quickly at the expense of fuel burn it's also there. Building a boat that only offers slow speed displacement cruising limits your market drastically.

I think a lot of people buy boats like Nordhavns then put them up for sale when they get caught out in a weather front they couldn't outrun or realise they don't actually have the time or inclination to spend 10 hours doing a run that otherwise might have taken them two and a half hours.

The point is owners can choose how they balance fuel usage and speed.

Henry

Un stabilised planning hulls will roll like a pig in anything other than a nice flat sea.

I do 10 knots from time to time but it also gets tedious to be honest. It is about the destination.

Deleted User : - I think it was you a few weeks ago who pointed out to someone that a bit of fuel is not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.

The biggest cost of a boat is mooring fees. The rest is much cheaper!

 

[jfm]

Un stabilised planning hulls will roll like a pig in anything other than a nice flat sea.

So will unstabilised displacement hulls. With either type of hull you can choose to stabilise or not, so I don't see how this is relevant to the debate. I came back to Antibes from Corsica at 9 knots/11 hours last month, purely out of choice

 

[Nigelpickin]

Un stabilised planning hulls will roll like a pig in anything other than a nice flat sea.

I do 10 knots from time to time but it also gets tedious to be honest. It is about the destination.

Deleted User : - I think it was you a few weeks ago who pointed out to someone that a bit of fuel is not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.

The biggest cost of a boat is mooring fees. The rest is much cheaper!

We've just done circa 1000nm at 8 kts. Not for any saving, out of choice - The remaining 500nm were done at circa 22kts and we did that because the sea was either quick step beam on or we were catching others up. We have no stabilisers and tbh I wouldn't consider them for my next boat unless they were inherited.

Pitching is of course a part of boating but if time allows planning then roll is relatively easy to avoid; if you are able to pick your day.

Money doesn't come in to it for us in that respect...it's about the journey!

I can't help feeling that stabilisers are a little like Valium for boats but then that may be because I don't have them....

 

[CLB]

The biggest cost of a boat is mooring fees. The rest is much cheaper!

Not for everyone. My fuel bil for this year so far is about 4 times my annual berthing bill. If i add visitor berthing on top, fuel is still the largest expense by far.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Deleted User : - I think it was you a few weeks ago who pointed out to someone that a bit of fuel is not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.

We're talking about the future, J. Fuel is relatively cheap at the moment and the econutters haven't really noticed us yet but that will change. In any case I would argue that fuel cost has already changed our boating habits. 25yrs ago I blatted everywhere at 25kts and didn't give a toss about fuel economy because diesel cost £0.15 per litre. Now even rich bastards are tiptoeing around at 10kts to save fuel and arguing over whether a P boat is better than a SD boat at D speeds

Btw the biggest cost in boating is depreciation plus of course another d-word but we won't go there

 

[henryf]

Not sure what the point of your post is Henry other than to big up Princess as usual. Pound for pound, the Fleming must be one of the most expensive boats on the planet so its not its not a fair comparison. Apart from that the Fleming is built to a much higher standard than any Princess. A far better comparison would be say a Swift Trawler 50 against a Princess 49 or a Magellano 66 against a Princess 68 and in both cases, the foreign boats undercut the British boats on price, even at todays appalling exchange rate

I use Princess as an example only because I know them.

I thought You were suggesting someone might buy a Fleming rather than something built in the U.K. For their retirement because they couldn't afford the fuel. My point was that with the money saved you could buy more extra fuel,than you could ever use.

Henry

 

[paul salliss]

Un stabilised planning hulls will roll like a pig in anything other than a nice flat sea.

I do 10 knots from time to time but it also gets tedious to be honest. It is about the destination.

Deleted User : - I think it was you a few weeks ago who pointed out to someone that a bit of fuel is not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.

The biggest cost of a boat is mooring fees. The rest is much cheaper!

I don't agree that is about the destination. For me the getting there is often more fun

 

[jrudge]

We're talking about the future, J. Fuel is relatively cheap at the moment and the econutters haven't really noticed us yet but that will change. In any case I would argue that fuel cost has already changed our boating habits. 25yrs ago I blatted everywhere at 25kts and didn't give a toss about fuel economy because diesel cost £0.15 per litre. Now even rich bastards are tiptoeing around at 10kts to save fuel and arguing over whether a P boat is better than a SD boat at D speeds

Btw the biggest cost in boating is depreciation plus of course another d-word but we won't go there

Agree on all counts ?