Why is my boat not selling in Spain

[jfm]

Next buyer could end up taking it back.

It's a funny old world.

GLWTS.

In that scenario, depending on whether next buyer resides in EU or not, and whether DavidJ is prepared to complete on the sale of the boat in say Dover or Cherbourg (which the Burton Waters move will make quite inconvenient) the VAT issues might be messy. DavidJ's ability to sell the boat to an EU buyer is being somewhat shut down by the UK repatriation, so there is own goal risk here.

GLWTS too though

 

[DavidJ]

I’m interested @jfm what you would do, sell in Spain/Burton Water/South Coast ? Or other alternatives of course.
Take into account a significant price reduction to say £95k and this is my last boat.

 

[Birdseye]

Good point about the Sealine brand outside the UK. The boat sales sites rather depend on someone searching on a particular brand.

FWIW and from a raggie - in the days when there were modern british sailing boat brands like Moody or Hunter, they never sold as easily over there as here. People like what they are familiar with.

 

[jfm]

In that scenario, depending on whether next buyer resides in EU or not, and whether DavidJ is prepared to complete on the sale of the boat in say Calais or Cherbourg (which the Burton Waters move will make quite inconvenient) the VAT issues might be messy. DavidJ's ability to sell the boat to an EU buyer is being somewhat shut down by the UK repatriation, so there is own goal risk here.

GLWTS too though

i meant to say Calais - corrected above.

 

[jakew009]

i meant to say Calais - corrected above.

Presumably the moment David brings it back into the UK he loses his ability to sell it EU VAT paid in France though?

 

[jfm]

I’m interested @jfm what you would do, sell in Spain/Burton Water/South Coast ? Or other alternatives of course.
Take into account a significant price reduction to say £95k and this is my last boat.

It's an each to their own thing, and depends on how much you care about a (say) £10k price difference vs minimal hassle.

I would drop the price, but that's a personal choice and if you're more patient and less hassle-averse than me, hold out longer. I sold my last boat last October, priced 10-15% below the asking price of the cheapest other competitors, for (imho) a 10-15% better boat. Sold to the first guy who saw it, and the low price made him keen as mustard so I could dictate terms, which reduces hassle. So, that's what i would do.

As regards relocation to UK, I would drop the price to a realistic number, and then drop it further by the £10k you will spend on relocation, and leave it in Spain for a couple of months. In your shoes I don't see the point in compounding losses by spending £10k relocating it.

I don't agree your thinking whereby a high asking price doesn't deter people because they bring offers; I think people just won't make contact if the asking price is too high.

Tales of it being seller's market with strong buyer demand are hype. Your boat is in the zone where buyers have mortgages and would borrow to buy it, and that part of the market is dead now. There are lots of boats on yachtworld that are just not selling for periods like a year. I signed a contract for a new build in summer 2022 with no part/ex and you'd be amazed by the percentage discounts offered when you're literally about to sign and wire a deposit. Especially the discounts offered on the boats I said I had decided not to buy, before I had signed for the one I did buy - ie the most desperate sellers. And a year later, things are worse. So buyer demand isn't what it is hyped up to be imho.

 

[jfm]

Presumably the moment David brings it back into the UK he loses his ability to sell it EU VAT paid in France though?

No he doesn't. Unless his boat sits at Burton Waters unsold for 3 years, he has a boat that can be VAT paid both in UK and EU, despite many posters saying that the two are mutually exclusive.

One he has sold it, it loses its "double status" and will become one or the other, but for now in his hands it has that status. HOWEVER, for him to sell it UK VAT paid the sale must occur in the UK (the sale completion, not the location of the boat when contracts are exchanged) and for him to sell it EU VAT paid the sale must occur in the EU. So the boat's "double status" comes with hassle as regards actual location of the boat, and it is highly questionable that relocating to UK improves that position. If an EU buyer could be bothered to travel to Lincoln (unlikely...) then for the boat to be sold EU VAT paid it would have to be taken back to EU for the completion, and all that would spook the buyer despite being entirely correct and lawful, plus it is a lot of effort for DavidJ.

A hassle with VAT is that there is so much misunderstanding of what are in fact very clear laws. Even this forum has a 10;90 ratio of correct/incorrect VAT posts - only Tranona posts consistently correctly but the poor guy must feel like he is banging his head against a brick wall sometimes. Result is people get spooked about something harmless - see 3rd para of post #36 and post #38. If we take Moonbeam as a sensible/typical buyer then moving this Sealine to UK will end up spooking both UK and EU buyers, which is a terrible own goal. Even if the buyer is chilled about the VAT, their lender won't be because the junior folk at lenders who deal with all this are pretty VAT-clueless and also get misinformed by the internet, and these transactions aren't of high enough value to pay for proper legal/tax advice.

There is nothing to worry about on VAT, but buyers have been made to be worried - the internet can be a terrible thing and this forum is a net contributor to that problem imho.

On the economics, I'm very much agreeing with 2nd para of post #54.

 

[DavidJ]

It's an each to their own thing, and depends on how much you care about a (say) £10k price difference vs minimal hassle.

I would drop the price, but that's a personal choice and if you're more patient and less hassle-averse than me, hold out longer. I sold my last boat last October, priced 10-15% below the asking price of the cheapest other competitors, for (imho) a 10-15% better boat. Sold to the first guy who saw it, and the low price made him keen as mustard so I could dictate terms, which reduces hassle. So, that's what i would do.

As regards relocation to UK, I would drop the price to a realistic number, and then drop it further by the £10k you will spend on relocation, and leave it in Spain for a couple of months. In your shoes I don't see the point in compounding losses by spending £10k relocating it.

I don't agree your thinking whereby a high asking price doesn't deter people because they bring offers; I think people just won't make contact if the asking price is too high.

Tales of it being seller's market with strong buyer demand are hype. Your boat is in the zone where buyers have mortgages and would borrow to buy it, and that part of the market is dead now. There are lots of boats on yachtworld that are just not selling for periods like a year. I signed a contract for a new build in summer 2022 with no part/ex and you'd be amazed by the percentage discounts offered when you're literally about to sign and wire a deposit. Especially the discounts offered on the boats I said I had decided not to buy, before I had signed for the one I did buy - ie the most desperate sellers. And a year later, things are worse. So buyer demand isn't what it is hyped up to be imho.

Very useful reply
In fact it answers my question (to myself) “what is driving my instinct to bring it back“ and it is the hassle factor
On reflection how much hassle is worth £10k? Well for me quite a bit actually and I have the time.
Thank you

 

[DavidJ]

No he doesn't. Unless his boat sits at Burton Waters unsold for 3 years, he has a boat that can be VAT paid both in UK and EU, despite many posters saying that the two are mutually exclusive.

Ah good point
Not that it really influences my plan but I hadn’t joined the dots to realise I had a 3 year return to the EU window, of course yes!
Very hypothetically, if I took it back to the EU do I just return to how it is now or do other 3 year rules kick in?

 

[DAW]

Tales of it being seller's market with strong buyer demand are hype. Your boat is in the zone where buyers have mortgages and would borrow to buy it, and that part of the market is dead now. There are lots of boats on yachtworld that are just not selling for periods like a year. I signed a contract for a new build in summer 2022 with no part/ex and you'd be amazed by the percentage discounts offered when you're literally about to sign and wire a deposit. Especially the discounts offered on the boats I said I had decided not to buy, before I had signed for the one I did buy - ie the most desperate sellers. And a year later, things are worse. So buyer demand isn't what it is hyped up to be imho.

Totally agree with this statement regarding the real state of the used and new boat markets. The brokers, builders and yachting media are doing a good job of talking things up, but if you follow their websites, yachtworld, etc. you see an ever increasing number of boats for sale, little movement in existing listings of usually popular boats, and meaningful price drops on good boats that have been around for a while with unrealistic prices. Many of the production builders have stock boats available for immediate delivery and they are now offering build slots for new boats with reasonable lead times, suggesting they have customers cancelling orders. I too have been offered very heavy discounts on new boats by both UK and Italian builders on the basis of no part/ex but with low/no commission deals to sell my current boat. All of this suggests the market is not quite as rosy as they would have you believe.

 

[jakew009]

Very useful reply
In fact it answers my question (to myself) “what is driving my instinct to bring it back“ and it is the hassle factor
On reflection how much hassle is worth £10k? Well for me quite a bit actually and I have the time.
Thank you

I don’t want to knock your pride and joy, but the reality is you could end up bringing it back to the UK, paying for 12 months mooring in an expensive UK marina and still not find a buyer.

Here’s two potential situations:

- advertise it with Spanish broker now for 70 gbp, pay broker, net 60k or so. Deal done fairly swiftly, no hassle no more bills.

- bring it back to the UK (10k), keep it for another 12 months (10k?), finally sell it for 90k, pay broker, net 60k or so…

You’ve got a lot more risk and hassle with the UK option with very limited financial upside.

 

[westernman]

Totally agree with this statement regarding the real state of the used and new boat markets. The brokers, builders and yachting media are doing a good job of talking things up, but if you follow their websites, yachtworld, etc. you see an ever increasing number of boats for sale, little movement in existing listings of usually popular boats, and meaningful price drops on good boats that have been around for a while with unrealistic prices. Many of the production builders have stock boats available for immediate delivery and they are now offering build slots for new boats with reasonable lead times, suggesting they have customers cancelling orders. I too have been offered very heavy discounts on new boats by both UK and Italian builders on the basis of no part/ex but with low/no commission deals to sell my current boat. All of this suggests the market is not quite as rosy as they would have you believe.

Interest rates have risen very sharply this year. Also conditions on revenue and down payment (typically more than 50% required now) have got a lot more difficult.
You can expect to be offered a 20% discount on a new boat without even asking or negotiating.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It's an each to their own thing, and depends on how much you care about a (say) £10k price difference vs minimal hassle.

I would drop the price, but that's a personal choice and if you're more patient and less hassle-averse than me, hold out longer. I sold my last boat last October, priced 10-15% below the asking price of the cheapest other competitors, for (imho) a 10-15% better boat. Sold to the first guy who saw it, and the low price made him keen as mustard so I could dictate terms, which reduces hassle. So, that's what i would do.

As regards relocation to UK, I would drop the price to a realistic number, and then drop it further by the £10k you will spend on relocation, and leave it in Spain for a couple of months. In your shoes I don't see the point in compounding losses by spending £10k relocating it.

I don't agree your thinking whereby a high asking price doesn't deter people because they bring offers; I think people just won't make contact if the asking price is too high.

Tales of it being seller's market with strong buyer demand are hype. Your boat is in the zone where buyers have mortgages and would borrow to buy it, and that part of the market is dead now. There are lots of boats on yachtworld that are just not selling for periods like a year. I signed a contract for a new build in summer 2022 with no part/ex and you'd be amazed by the percentage discounts offered when you're literally about to sign and wire a deposit. Especially the discounts offered on the boats I said I had decided not to buy, before I had signed for the one I did buy - ie the most desperate sellers. And a year later, things are worse. So buyer demand isn't what it is hyped up to be imho.

I completely agree about the high price deterring people.

All of my previous boats have been way above average condition and spec', but i don't think that puts the price up in most cases, at least not the asking price. I priced all of them at a sensible price, which elicited interest. The "above and beyond" condition makes the boat more appealing to those who come to view (as you well know) and offers are close to asking price, if not the actual asking price.

I also agree, leave the boat in Spain, drop the price to the lower ranges for the same boat, make sure she is well presented (and well advertised with plenty of good pics etc). First or second viewer is likely to buy.

 

[Moonbeam]

A hassle with VAT is that there is so much misunderstanding of what are in fact very clear laws. Even this forum has a 10;90 ratio of correct/incorrect VAT posts - only Tranona posts consistently correctly but the poor guy must feel like he is banging his head against a brick wall sometimes. Result is people get spooked about something harmless - see 3rd para of post #36 and post #38. If we take Moonbeam as a sensible/typical buyer then moving this Sealine to UK will end up spooking both UK and EU buyers, which is a terrible own goal. Even if the buyer is chilled about the VAT, their lender won't be because the junior folk at lenders who deal with all this are pretty VAT-clueless and also get misinformed by the internet, and these transactions aren't of high enough value to pay for proper legal/tax advice.

Completely agree with all of this, and I have indeed learnt from Tranonas posts over the years that VAT is essentially a non issue. But like you say, it's become a group think thing where buyers get in a flap about it, not because they care themselves, but because they are looking to cover themselves against flapping buyers when it becomes their turn to sell it on.... and so the flap loop continues!

I can see the same essentially irrelevant flap loop setting in around where the boat was on brexit day etc etc. So as a buyer myself that is why I said what I did in post #36.

I also agree with jfm that, despite what those in the industry are trying to make us believe, the post covid steam has come right out of the boat market. Of course, some buyers are still thinking it's a hot market, and are jumping in. But in several cases lately, I've seen boats go under offer, and then become re-available a few weeks later. Could be a poor survey/seatrial, but could also be the moment a buyer starts to realise they are overpaying and uses the survey as an out.

Asking prices that are tens of thousands of pounds more than they were five years ago, yet the boat is now fives years older! That is really starting to stick in the craw for me. I imagine I'm not the only one.

 

[petem]

The market for this boat in Spain is very small. As David has said himself, he's not seen another one. And it's not in a location, like Mallorca, where a prospective buyer can view a variety of similar boats on the same day.

Keep it in Spain and it will take longer to sell and for a lower price. Plus you'll have the hassle and cost of having a boat in another country that you have no interest in maintaining or visiting.

I'd pay the £6k, get it trucked to boats.co.uk / Essex where it can sit on the hard at no cost until it sells (which won't take long if it's priced competitively).

 

[jfm]

Completely agree with all of this, and I have indeed learnt from Tranonas posts over the years that VAT is essentially a non issue. But like you say, it's become a group think thing where buyers get in a flap about it, not because they care themselves, but because they are looking to cover themselves against flapping buyers when it becomes their turn to sell it on.... and so the flap loop continues!

I can see the same essentially irrelevant flap loop setting in around where the boat was on brexit day etc etc. So as a buyer myself that is why I said what I did in post #36.

I also agree with jfm that, despite what those in the industry are trying to make us believe, the post covid steam has come right out of the boat market. Of course, some buyers are still thinking it's a hot market, and are jumping in. But in several cases lately, I've seen boats go under offer, and then become re-available a few weeks later. Could be a poor survey/seatrial, but could also be the moment a buyer starts to realise they are overpaying and uses the survey as an out.

Asking prices that are tens of thousands of pounds more than they were five years ago, yet the boat is now fives years older! That is really starting to stick in the craw for me. I imagine I'm not the only one.

"Flap loop" - a very accurate observation

 

[jfm]

The market for this boat in Spain is very small. As David has said himself, he's not seen another one. And it's not in a location, like Mallorca, where a prospective buyer can view a variety of similar boats on the same day.

Keep it in Spain and it will take longer to sell and for a lower price. Plus you'll have the hassle and cost of having a boat in another country that you have no interest in maintaining or visiting.

I'd pay the £6k, get it trucked to boats.co.uk / Essex where it can sit on the hard at no cost until it sells (which won't take long if it's priced competitively).

That's a good point Pete. If putting it up for sale, I would put it with a supermarket like Boats.co.uk, not Burton BackWaters

Worth a call to Boats and asking if their CalaD'Or location makes more sense. Would they want to take position and sell it there? They would insist on a lower asking price.

The shipping cost seems to be nearer 10k than 6k by the way.

 

[DavidJ]

That's a good point Pete. If putting it up for sale, I would put it with a supermarket like Boats.co.uk, not Burton BackWaters

Worth a call to Boats and asking if their CalaD'Or location makes more sense. Would they want to take position and sell it there? They would insist on a lower asking price.

The shipping cost seems to be nearer 10k than 6k by the way.

I’m liking your ref to Burton BackWaters.
Boats (UK) is an interesting option, it’s south enough, it dispels my fear of mounting fees on the south coast and I hear good thing about them. Thanks Pete and jfm

 

[petem]

That's a good point Pete. If putting it up for sale, I would put it with a supermarket like Boats.co.uk, not Burton BackWaters

Worth a call to Boats and asking if their CalaD'Or location makes more sense. Would they want to take position and sell it there? They would insist on a lower asking price.

The shipping cost seems to be nearer 10k than 6k by the way.

IIRC we were quoted £7k to truck a T43 from Essex to Altea earlier in the year. Remember that VAT has been abolished on truck costs.

Ref Cala D'Or, it's worth considering as they were offering half price brokerage fees and free hard standing earlier in the year.

Deffo worth a call to to boats.co.uk as they may have space on a truck heading back from the Med.

 

[jfm]

IIRC we were quoted £7k to truck a T43 from Essex to Altea earlier in the year. Remember that VAT has been abolished on truck costs.

Ref Cala D'Or, it's worth considering as they were offering half price brokerage fees and free hard standing earlier in the year.

Deffo worth a call to to boats.co.uk as they may have space on a truck heading back from the Med.

I have nothing but praise for Boats.co.uk. I have bought 3 x new fairlines, and sold all 3, through them. Always fair and keep their word. VERY good at selling used boats, and are brand agnostic.