Stork_III
Well-known member
Having owned a HR31 from their second HR fleet (see my forum name), and having the bill of sale records from new, I can confirm that the price I paid in 2002 was similar but more than BKYC paid in 1995.
Why have southerly gone bust (again)?
- Thread starter Oscarpop
- Start date
Sailfree
Well-known member
Cause they don't want a cramped Rustler
Sybarite
Well-known member
Re HR part of their current publicity is that they have never had financial problems.
Ex-SolentBoy
New member
This is not about Rustler. It's bought British boat building.
HR had serious financial issues IIRC. Clearly these orders will have helped. If BKYc bought from Northshore this thread wouldn't be here, and the many British jobs lost would have been saved.
Or any other company.
CC@GTY
New member
For thread info, this is the response I got when I contacted BKYC at the beginning of 2013 shortly after the 10 boat HR deal had been announced:
"Conrad
I am pleased to discover that there is a potential alternative to the HR 342, and interested to hear about it as competition can only benefit the club. Having visited your website, to find it under construction, I would be interested to see what your 35 consists of. We will certainly look at in the future although we do look at other factors that the HR fulfils very well including resale value as part of our model.
I wish you well for the future.
Rear Commodore (Sailing)
British Kiel Yacht Club"
.....and more recently...:
"Conrad
Whilst I think the future closure of Kiel is probably the worst kept secret, there has been no official announcement as yet and all that is certain is that we have another two and half season of sailing to complete here in Kiel before anything happens. We remain open for business until such time.
The future of the yachts is thus still a work in progress, all I can say at the moment is that they will remain within the MoD environment.
Rear Commodore (Sailing)
British Kiel Yacht Club"
"Conrad
I am pleased to discover that there is a potential alternative to the HR 342, and interested to hear about it as competition can only benefit the club. Having visited your website, to find it under construction, I would be interested to see what your 35 consists of. We will certainly look at in the future although we do look at other factors that the HR fulfils very well including resale value as part of our model.
I wish you well for the future.
Rear Commodore (Sailing)
British Kiel Yacht Club"
.....and more recently...:
"Conrad
Whilst I think the future closure of Kiel is probably the worst kept secret, there has been no official announcement as yet and all that is certain is that we have another two and half season of sailing to complete here in Kiel before anything happens. We remain open for business until such time.
The future of the yachts is thus still a work in progress, all I can say at the moment is that they will remain within the MoD environment.
Rear Commodore (Sailing)
British Kiel Yacht Club"
Tempus
Member
As one of the last purchasers of a Southerly - we bought a 47 in September 12, delivered in September 13 I can fully understand why they went bust
Firstly we have lots of friends whose parents had boats. 7 out of 10 of them don't now one. We are first generation boat owners who bought our first boat when we were late 20's. All of our friends were busy "getting a foot" on the housing ladder" at the time and that pressure, to spend every penny on housing has got even more extreme. Take the ease of chartering into account and boat ownership is really just for the keen or dreamers. Hence the market for small specialist boats has all but gone and the only choice is to offer larger sizes for those with money who are buying - the empty nesting baby boomers, city whizz kids, or entrepreneurs who've sold up.
You then come to the choice of boat - it's now an international choice, not just UK, and the variety of builders in vast. So why buy a Southerly?
- If you're rich and inexperienced but dreaming of doing the Arc or RTW then an Oyster must be a better bet given their clever marketing of the world rally.
- If you're very rich then a bigger boat looks better (knocks our the city whizz kids!)
- If you want to race seriously then you buy something else
- If you're not sure but want to cruise safely with your family in a boat you know you'll always be able to sell again you buy a Hallberg Rassy (as we did last time)
- If you're very sure and know you want to cruise globally on your own then you buy one of the French aluminium offerings from Garcia, Allures etc
- If you haven't got more money than sense you buy one of the excellent current crop of AWB+
We bought a Southerly 47 as we knew exactly what we wanted in a boat having owned for 25+ years and with a very clear plan for the next 10. We loved the deck saloon and whilst we wanted the space, speed and comfort of a bigger boat, did not want to compromise on the lack of access to interesting places that the deeper draft would bring. Hence we were very experienced boat owners, with spare cash to pay the high prices, and a very clear picture of what we wanted. Bang on Southerly's market, but not a very big market I suspect.
Once we'd signed up the customer service could only be described as "production" rather than "customer" focused - Southerly was clearly a business run by boat builders for themselves rather than having a relentless focus on the customer. Hence we were never made to feel special and left every production visit to the factory on a low. Again, not a recipe for long term success. The financial troubles then significantly compounded these problems.
Finally the production looks expensive to me, It took 2 weeks to make ply panels for the headlining, whereas our previous boat, a Halberg Rassy had simpler headlining which looked quicker to make and better on. The snagging list has been long whereas with HR it was non-existent. All of these issues add massive cost but actually diminish quality.
So there you have it:
A declining market with fewer people buying boats
Those that do have the money often are newbies and therefore go for a bigger brand with more international presence
Inefficient production techniques which add cost but no quality
Lack of customer service which means that you fail to retain repeat business.
It's a great shame. The 47 is amazing. Stephen Jones at his best, comfortable, fast (8.5 knots back across the channel), well behaved with the large twin rudders, light and airy inside and wonderfully put together. We'd make the same choice again, even knowing what we do now.
I hope someone buys the design rights but in this climate you need a real customer focus ethos to win not just the ability to hire the right designers and build boats
Firstly we have lots of friends whose parents had boats. 7 out of 10 of them don't now one. We are first generation boat owners who bought our first boat when we were late 20's. All of our friends were busy "getting a foot" on the housing ladder" at the time and that pressure, to spend every penny on housing has got even more extreme. Take the ease of chartering into account and boat ownership is really just for the keen or dreamers. Hence the market for small specialist boats has all but gone and the only choice is to offer larger sizes for those with money who are buying - the empty nesting baby boomers, city whizz kids, or entrepreneurs who've sold up.
You then come to the choice of boat - it's now an international choice, not just UK, and the variety of builders in vast. So why buy a Southerly?
- If you're rich and inexperienced but dreaming of doing the Arc or RTW then an Oyster must be a better bet given their clever marketing of the world rally.
- If you're very rich then a bigger boat looks better (knocks our the city whizz kids!)
- If you want to race seriously then you buy something else
- If you're not sure but want to cruise safely with your family in a boat you know you'll always be able to sell again you buy a Hallberg Rassy (as we did last time)
- If you're very sure and know you want to cruise globally on your own then you buy one of the French aluminium offerings from Garcia, Allures etc
- If you haven't got more money than sense you buy one of the excellent current crop of AWB+
We bought a Southerly 47 as we knew exactly what we wanted in a boat having owned for 25+ years and with a very clear plan for the next 10. We loved the deck saloon and whilst we wanted the space, speed and comfort of a bigger boat, did not want to compromise on the lack of access to interesting places that the deeper draft would bring. Hence we were very experienced boat owners, with spare cash to pay the high prices, and a very clear picture of what we wanted. Bang on Southerly's market, but not a very big market I suspect.
Once we'd signed up the customer service could only be described as "production" rather than "customer" focused - Southerly was clearly a business run by boat builders for themselves rather than having a relentless focus on the customer. Hence we were never made to feel special and left every production visit to the factory on a low. Again, not a recipe for long term success. The financial troubles then significantly compounded these problems.
Finally the production looks expensive to me, It took 2 weeks to make ply panels for the headlining, whereas our previous boat, a Halberg Rassy had simpler headlining which looked quicker to make and better on. The snagging list has been long whereas with HR it was non-existent. All of these issues add massive cost but actually diminish quality.
So there you have it:
A declining market with fewer people buying boats
Those that do have the money often are newbies and therefore go for a bigger brand with more international presence
Inefficient production techniques which add cost but no quality
Lack of customer service which means that you fail to retain repeat business.
It's a great shame. The 47 is amazing. Stephen Jones at his best, comfortable, fast (8.5 knots back across the channel), well behaved with the large twin rudders, light and airy inside and wonderfully put together. We'd make the same choice again, even knowing what we do now.
I hope someone buys the design rights but in this climate you need a real customer focus ethos to win not just the ability to hire the right designers and build boats
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Mister Rhino
New member
Not HR, even saying it on an open forum is actionable.
They have never even missed a delivery date, ever!
If you do't know what you are talking about, why not keep quiet?
They have never even missed a delivery date, ever!
If you do't know what you are talking about, why not keep quiet?
AndrewfromFal
Active member
Many, many years ago there was some debate about this in the letters page of Yachting World; - late 80s IIRC. At that time the BKYC had just replaced their existing boats with (I think) a fleet of Dehlers. I think it was Peter Polland (who was then running Hunter) who fired off an angry missive asking what in God's names they were doing spending Tax Payers' money on boats built outside of the UK (as per your point above).
A response from a member of the BKYC (who also owned a Dehler privately) stated that the BKYC was a private organisation and it's yachts were not financed by state funds; he also went onto to make some rather pointed comments about the British Boat Building industry. It seems little has changed
Sailfree
Well-known member
Unfortunately its not just about the British boat Building industry its also about the British Boat selling industry. For most they are selling dreams eg new yacht and for many buyers they are buying a nightmare esp if they go pop with your money!
I have bought 3 new boats in the UK and never again. I would buy from the factory, get it basic commissioned at the nearest port - sail back to uk and get it fitted out with all the radar/heating etc by specialists installers not the Bob the Builders that most dealers use to cut costs/increase profits.
WRT Southerly's I liked them but IMHO they should have had a parallel model without lifting keel and 2 rudders to widen their potential market.
Cardo
Active member
According to the marketing bumf, all the models were available with fixed fin keels. But... why buy a Southerly if you don't want the lifting keel?
Oscarpop
New member
Quote :"Once we'd signed up the customer service could only be described as "production" rather than "customer" focused - Southerly was clearly a business run by boat builders for themselves rather than having a relentless focus on the customer. Hence we were never made to feel special and left every production visit to the factory on a low. Again, not a recipe for long term success. The financial troubles then significantly compounded these "
I agree totally . Their customer service was woeful .
When we bought ours I got so pee'd off with the salesman that I told then to return my deposit as I would not be treated so badly. Needless to say the service improved after that, albeit a little awkwardly.
Strangely enough, I was port bound in France this summer and was talking to a nice chap moored next to us in a najad. We were passing the time exchanging stories about boat builds and I told him about my experiences with the salesman at southerly. He said " it wasn't mr xxxxxxx was it?" I then asked if I had offended a life long friend of his. He said that that salesman had been around for years and had a reputation for being an a**e.
I think that there is a body of evidence (albeit anecdotal in part) that lays part of the problem at he attitude of the sales teams.
Hopefully if boatbuilders of even the new owner of southerly yachts ( fingers crossed) reads this he or she will take notice
I agree totally . Their customer service was woeful .
When we bought ours I got so pee'd off with the salesman that I told then to return my deposit as I would not be treated so badly. Needless to say the service improved after that, albeit a little awkwardly.
Strangely enough, I was port bound in France this summer and was talking to a nice chap moored next to us in a najad. We were passing the time exchanging stories about boat builds and I told him about my experiences with the salesman at southerly. He said " it wasn't mr xxxxxxx was it?" I then asked if I had offended a life long friend of his. He said that that salesman had been around for years and had a reputation for being an a**e.
I think that there is a body of evidence (albeit anecdotal in part) that lays part of the problem at he attitude of the sales teams.
Hopefully if boatbuilders of even the new owner of southerly yachts ( fingers crossed) reads this he or she will take notice
meandraft
New member
I agree with Tempus's comment on Southerly's customer service being production rather than customer based. We had our 32 built in 2008. Progress at times was disappointingly slow with the scheduled delivery date slipping back from July to late September. At hand over time we quickly found 2 A4 pages of faults that needed sorting ready for our trip back to Essex. Most were done although the fresh water system burst open whilst on their pontoon on the evening before departure. We soon realised that the reality of owning a Southerly wasn't to be quite as trouble free as we'd hoped. A year later we had to "stamp our feet" somewhat at the Southampton boat show to get some action over our growing list of niggles.
Now that we're 6 years down the line we still love the boat but not surprised that sales have dried up as they just don't provide the customer support that people expect in today's climate. Hopefully a more customer orientated builder will take the helm but rarely does a leopard change it's spots.
Now that we're 6 years down the line we still love the boat but not surprised that sales have dried up as they just don't provide the customer support that people expect in today's climate. Hopefully a more customer orientated builder will take the helm but rarely does a leopard change it's spots.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
Because if you're spending government money, you are OBLIGED under EU rules to make your tender Europe-wide for anything more than a fairly low sum (around £10,000 - not sure exactly, but I recall it's ridiculously low - certainly less than the cost of a new yacht). HR will have won the tender; it is quite possible that UK boat-builders refused to participate, as the terms can be quite onerous. The MOD will have specified precisely what they wanted; it is also possible that no UK builder could meet the spec. It isn't like us wandering round the boat-show wondering what we fancy; the tendering operation starts by specifying what you want, and then judging tenders against the specification.
Sailfree
Well-known member
This is Scuttbutt stop posting such sensible and logical posts and let those that lust after old or restricted designs that don't sell (is that the reason they mostly own 30yr old MABs?) dream on.
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
They used to use Contessa 26's and 32's - I've spent a week or two in a Contessa 26 with 3 or 4 others on quite a few occasions. A Rustler would be luxury for them. Oddly enough Southerly's would have been great because of the shoal water capability. 6' draft would put quite a few places in the Baltic out of reach.
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
Absolutely true but it would be fairly easy to bias it towards a British builder. Shoal draft and swing keel with ballast in the keel and the ability to take the ground without putting the weight on the fibreglass of the hull for example. It's how you the play the game and we play it straight unlike some other EU members
Sailfree
Well-known member
Joking aside - I am saddened by the demise of Southerly as I did hope to buy one at some stage in the future. Why can't the British manufacture anything successfully - eg cars or boats - yet they seem to do ok once under foreign ownership
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
All true - but it is harder to bias than it seems, and too obvious an attempt to bias it would be spotted. An obviously biased specification could be challenged by builders who felt that their wares were being unfairly excluded. As you say, Brits tend to "play the game"; we were certainly expected to ensure that potential EU tenders were specified in a manner that wasn't too prescriptive. Certainly anyone specifying the very specific features you mention could be expected to have to justify them. It might be reasonable to specify shallow draft and safety in grounding, but specifying how that was to be attained would be out of bounds.
The tender documents can be obtained by anyone who wishes to participate - the tendering process must be advertised in the EU official gazette. So, you can't "bend" the process by making sure that only people whose tenders you want to see the invitation!
MrB
Well-known member
I am also saddened by Southerly's demise but they still have the molds and keep rights to the keel........i'll bet if one rocked up with a hand full of cash they would find a (safe) way of building one. IIRC, when they went bust last year they still paid all their suppliers, i wonder if that will be so this time?
Tranona
Well-known member
No. Suppliers were the biggest losers, although the new company did make efforts to rebuild relationships to obtain further supplies. This may well be part of the reason why they failed again as costs will have risen substantially as suppliers would be less generous with their terms. Some, who were accommodating, will have lost again.