Why don't we use Lawyers?

[[2574]]

Why don\'t we use Lawyers?

Reflecting on the purchase of our boat last year, we paid a huge (for us) sum of money on the basis of all the contractual paperwork supplied by the broker (Marine Sales, it was a stock boat). I did make sure that all the contracts were sealed by the company and that a director signed the paperwork to ensure the contract was enforceable but we didn't have a lawyer review it. Looking back that seems a bit odd. Buy a house for the same amount of cash and the lawyers are all over the place. Do the marine mortgage companies require a lawyer to review and control the contract, even if for say a £25k purchase? Do other people have their lawyers do the deal anyway?

 

[hlb]

Re: Why don\'t we use Lawyers?

Never understud why you need a lawyer to buy a house. Understand why you need one under the present complicated mess. But buying a car seems to work ok. Cant understand why there need be any difference. With what I've paid lawyers this year it would have been a long way towards a new boat.

<font color=blue> Haydn

 

[trev]

Re: Why don\'t we use Lawyers?

Never met a lawyer who didn't charge me the Earth for what appeared to be very little effort ! Lets keep them out of boat buying or they may make it so complicated and introduce all their own rules (by law, of course), which will make it compulsory to use them.
Sorry for any of the profession out there - but you ain't my favourite peeps!!!

Trev

 

[jfm]

talking out of both sides of your mouth

Trev, don't use them. Do your own conveyancing, represent yourself in court, read/write your own contracts, write your own will. I share some of your views about lawyers (though not fair to tar all with same brush - there are good ones as well as bad ones) but what I can't figure is how come people keep using them (in HLB's case, a boat worth of fees) and keep complaining at the same time! No-one has to use them, do they? Or am I missing the point?

 

[byron]

Re: Why don\'t we use Lawyers?

<font color=blue>My last two house purchases I used a Conveyancer and was very happy with the cost and service and see no need for one when buying a boat. If a vessel is registered then the requirements are quite specific if not then its no different to buying an expensive car.

http://www.alexander-advertising.co.uk

 

[hlb]

Re: talking out of both sides of your mouth

Ah but your missing the point. I f lawyers had not got involved with house buying. Just a form or something from the land registery. Bit like buying a car. Then it would never have got complicated. So now have to get a lawyer because everything is full of meaningless yet special words which only lawyers understand. it like the enigma machine (Is that right) Unless you have one.You cant understand what the other one is saying.

<font color=blue> Haydn

 

[jfm]

reasons to use lawyers

You can buy a house without a lawyer. What makes houses different from boats/cars are:

Under UK property law, it is not possible to transfer ownership of land except by written contract. This is the "fault" of parliament (in 1925), not lawyers. Parliament made the law, not lawyers. Twas done partly to make sure greedy exchequer got stamp duty. Complex written contracts scare many people, so they hire lawyers. In contrast, you can buy a boat for cash down the pub.

It is habit among UK housebuyers to want to know if there are rights of way, easements, planning permission in relation to land. Most people hire a lawyer to search this stuff out. But they dont have to, they can diy or just take the risk if they like. I agree that a simple form from land registry can transfer ownership (and indeed, it does) but how could this simple form tell you if planning permission was given yesterday for a toxic nuclear sewage plant to be built across the road from the house you're about to buy? Again, not applicable to boat/car

 

[hlb]

Re: reasons to use lawyers

No reason why a council search with planning aplications for the area. Could not be attatched. Maybe a web site. Not necesarly blaming Lawyers in them selves. Government lawyers if you like. It could easily be changed. Just that no one wants to change it. Anyway the argument was. Should we have lawyers for boats. No definatly not. Else NO BOAT!!!!

<font color=blue> Haydn

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: Its all a worry!

Rob,
I wonder how many people get caught out, I know when I purchased I had a few sleepless nights until I had my padlock on the boat and it was on my mooring.
I purchased through a yacht broker and evidently the broker holds title for three days according to the broker I delt with. Caught him on the boat after I paid "just checking the inventory".
How can we be sure 1. That the seller has full ownership. 2. That there is no outstanding debt on the boat. 3. All the fees for the marina have been cleared.
4. That VAT has been paid on the boat. No doubt many more checks should be made before we part with our cheque.
Take care.
Trevor

 

[jfm]

Ooh yes, get the state to pay for it

Quite right HLB. The council could do all the searches, then we would not need lawyers for it. So, you are suggesting that the cost of carrying out checks on a property before someone buys it should now be done by new inefficient council departments all funded by the taxpayer, right?

 

[[2574]]

Re: Its all a worry!

Trevor, well yes, my thoughts exactly. The marine mortgage folk require Part 1 registration to give comfort as to vendors title and the registration of legal charges to try to regularise the situation, but the "down the pub" transaction referred to earlier in this thread is "scary pants" to me! My boat is SSR registered, but that's just to placate the "Gendarmerie du Mer" across the channel and is of no value from a legel perspective. I suppose one takes comfort from using an established broker that will be around next week (against whom you could enforce a contract) but my experience is that one has to force these guys to fill the forms in right. My contract was initially signed by an employee of the company and not sealed, so I made a fuss but I'm no lawyer. It all seems to be a bit "it'll be alright on the night". That's OK as long as it is!

Rob

 

[TerrifiedTony]

Re: Its all a worry!

Oh No ! Stop the thread now its toooooooo scary !

Not an hour ago I put a very large cheque in a very small envelope for the balance payment on the new boat and most of the points raised on here have been whizzing around my head for days. I agree getting lawyers involved may not be a good idea but at the moment I feel very exposed.

I agree with Rob that you have to push hard to get the documents correctly signed, the initial title document I saw only had the vendors signature and it was photocopied at that. What I am not clear about in the posts is what is a sealed contract ? Do you mean as in stamped with PAID or do brokers all have individual signet rings and sealing wax.

Is paying by cheque a bad idea? I thought it safer than Electronic Funds Transfer as it implies in my mind some sort of contract but probably not.

I find it really strange to hand over dosh like this and then have to wait 4 or 5 days before the broker will deem it okay to hand over the title..what happens in between in case of a problem is anyones guess.

Ah well, guess I will have to hang on to my name a little longer.

Tony

 

[wakeup]

Nautical Lawyer Joke?

What do you call 100 drowned lawyers at the bottom of the sea?















A good start!!






Why don't sharks bite lawyers?










Professional respect!!

 

[[2574]]

Re: Its all a worry!

Tony,

A "sealed" document is a document (contract) that has been impressed with the Company seal which in effect is the company's signature. If the document is also signed by a director of the company you can be pretty sure you have a correctly signed contract which is binding upon the company. (Otherwise there's always the potential nightmare of an employee of the company purporting to effect a contract on behalf of the company but actually does not have authority to do so. Then, possibly, the company can claim not to have been contracted by the individual acting "Ultra vires". Having said all that I think the law was changed a while ago to make this much less likely.)

Don't worry - I did exactly what you've just done!

Rob

 

[Guest]

Re: Why don\'t we use Lawyers?

Whilst on this subject could someone tell me what documents I should get with my new boat. I have never had a boat before so is it like a car logbook?

 

[jfm]

seals

Sealing really makes no difference here. Some types of contract (deeds) when entered into by a company need to be made under seal to be valid, but the sale of a boat isn't one of them.

The change of law recently (5 years ago, ish) on seals simply eliminated the need actually to use a real seal (namely a blob of red wax with the company's seal pushed into it). It allowed companies instead to write the words "under seal" and not bother with the red wax. That's all.

What confuses me here is why any companies are involved at all. Mostly you buy a company from an individual, not a company. The broker might be a company but you aren't buying the boat off the broker. Unless it's a part ex stock boat, maybe.

 

[[2574]]

Re: seals

yes, that's it, she was a part ex stock boat. Thanks for the stuff on seals, that's useful to know. Rob

 

[TerrifiedTony]

Re: seals

Thanks JFM/Rob. I was actually joking (badly it seems) about signet rings and sealing wax assuming they hadn't been used since middle ages ! Anyway, the big cheque is in the little envelope inside the red mail box so who give a flying whotsit.

Amazing what a glass or two of vino veritas can do!

 

[andyball]

Re: Ooh yes, get the state to pay for it

But the councils DO do the searches....& charge £100 odd quid for it. Am I missing something?

Or if you don't need a mortgage,you can do the search yourself by phoning up the various council dept's.

Conveyancing quite easy in most cases,plenty of books at libraries.....I found it interesting, & saved £100's & completed very quickly indeed.

 

[tcm]

Re: The Company Seal

Ooh I love it when we need to get the Company Seal out. "Owrouuu! Owroouu!" and we all flap-clap our hands together. "eh wot?"says the new girl in accounts...