why do we still have standing rigging?

[chrisedwards]

You are right - this is the most important reason for me having an unstayed mast - you can let the sails out past athwartships and the boat stays stationery. It allows you to do more manoeuvres under sail which is what sailing is all about for me.

For cruising I think Chris Edwards has listed most of the well accepted advantages...
Here's a couple more.. Gybing less stressful, less slam imparted into the structure

A tapered mast feathers off in gusts, which can be a good thing as opposed to flattening everything hard hard in with a stayed equivalent.. Not always but hey...

And , my favourite.. No bloody shrouds to chafe the main against..

Corribee ( my experience) the unstayed mast when redesigned came through the forehatch ( or was encouraged to by elongating the rudder Skeg too) so structurally a very easy one.
And I climbed it too, boat never capsized nor snapped off...

And ( ok bit of a smartarise here) I rigged a forsa with a rigid forestay that precluded putting the freestanding mast in compression... Anything can be done, it just takes a bit of ingenuity and lateral thinking..

But for banging upwind against the trades( who really really does much of that eh?), posh fore sails and big diesels are the way to go ( quicker).

 

[Seajet]

You are right - this is the most important reason for me having an unstayed mast - you can let the sails out past athwartships and the boat stays stationery. It allows you to do more manoeuvres under sail which is what sailing is all about for me.

Wot, like blotting paper ?!

I knew these suspenderless rigs were daft !

 

[snowleopard]

OK, here's my two pennorth. This is my rig:

The mast is a freely-rotating wing mounted on a post fixed into the boat.

Firstly cost: A free-standing carbon mast is going to cost more than an aluminium mast + stays. I was quoted £35,000 for an aerorig for my 40 footer and even more for a stayed carbon mast. The Freewing was a lot less than that but still more than a conventional rig plus stays and winches etc. That pretty well rules it out on AWBs built to a budget.

The weight of an unstayed carbon mast is generally around the same as an ally mast + stays but the CG is lower.

The hull stresses for an unstayed mast are generally the same or lower compared to the forces on mast step and chainplates. You can't just slot an unstayed mast into a boat designed for standing rigging but with a bit of extra structure at deck level the conversion is no great problem. The horizontal load on the foot of my mast at the point of lifting a hull is just 7 tonnes, something fibreglass can cope with easily. Intuitively it looks as though the stresses should be much higher which puts a lot of people off but a bit of simple physics shows that isn't the case.

Most of the benefits have already been mentioned but I'll reiterate the gybing issue. If the rig as a whole rotates, a gybe is almost stress-free as there are no shrouds to hit and you can let the sheet run free so the sail weathercocks. The greatest delight is reefing in a rising wind. No rounding up, just steer downwind, let the sheet run free, wander up to the foredeck to pull down the reef then wind in the sheet and carry on. A great improvement in efficiency comes from being able to let the boom out beyond square so that on a broad reach it still has laminar flow where the main of a stayed rig with the boom against the shrouds is stalled. At the same time the headsail is in clear air and drawing well rather than blanketed behind the main.

In the 1930s someone put a prototype of the Aerorig on a Bembridge Redwing. After a couple of seasons it was banned because it completely outclassed the rest of the fleet.

What stops unstayed rigs taking over the sailing world is (a) cost (b) 'It can't be strong enough' (c) 'It doesn't look right without wire to hold it up' (d) 'If it were any good everyone would have one'.

 

[NormanS]

And then you go and spoil it all,

by....




leaving a fender out.

 

[prv]

Wire wears much better than string when subject to chafing.

Apparently they make armoured gloves (so meat-packing plant workers don't slice their hands) out of Dynex Dux (a relative of Dyneema) these days. Don't know how it compares to wire, but it clearly doesn't give up at the first hint of abrasion.

I don 't know what you would terminate Dyneema standing rigging with?

Splices, around either a deadeye (used with lanyards in the traditional way, except aluminium and dyneema rather than lignum vitae and Russian hemp) or around a "terminator" that's similar to a deadeye but designed to have a bottlescrew attached to it.

Pete

 

[Tomahawk]

...

Also we are a conservative lot and having an Aero rig or similar would be a step out of the comfort zone of many of us..

Given someone is building a new version of a Con 32 because many peeps seem to value it as a "traditional" boat..

I think that surely counts as one of the understatements of the centuary..

 

[chrisedwards]

Very exciting rig there - just one issue - you can just slot an unstayed mast into a boat designed for standing rigging - in my experience and that does not - by no means - cover yours - looking at your photos! - Even the literature accompanying some of the boats I have bought said this - "no additional structural strengthening carried out" - Kingfisher 20. And just by looking at the eight other boats I have owned with freestanding masts and comparing with bermudan equivalents - it is clear. Some yachts picked for conversion were chosen partly for this reason - Colvic Sailor - a nice tough old boat.

Of course this does not apply to all set ups.

OK, here's my two pennorth. This is my rig:

The mast is a freely-rotating wing mounted on a post fixed into the boat.

Firstly cost: A free-standing carbon mast is going to cost more than an aluminium mast + stays. I was quoted £35,000 for an aerorig for my 40 footer and even more for a stayed carbon mast. The Freewing was a lot less than that but still more than a conventional rig plus stays and winches etc. That pretty well rules it out on AWBs built to a budget.

The weight of an unstayed carbon mast is generally around the same as an ally mast + stays but the CG is lower.

The hull stresses for an unstayed mast are generally the same or lower compared to the forces on mast step and chainplates. You can't just slot an unstayed mast into a boat designed for standing rigging but with a bit of extra structure at deck level the conversion is no great problem. The horizontal load on the foot of my mast at the point of lifting a hull is just 7 tonnes, something fibreglass can cope with easily. Intuitively it looks as though the stresses should be much higher which puts a lot of people off but a bit of simple physics shows that isn't the case.

Most of the benefits have already been mentioned but I'll reiterate the gybing issue. If the rig as a whole rotates, a gybe is almost stress-free as there are no shrouds to hit and you can let the sheet run free so the sail weathercocks. The greatest delight is reefing in a rising wind. No rounding up, just steer downwind, let the sheet run free, wander up to the foredeck to pull down the reef then wind in the sheet and carry on. A great improvement in efficiency comes from being able to let the boom out beyond square so that on a broad reach it still has laminar flow where the main of a stayed rig with the boom against the shrouds is stalled. At the same time the headsail is in clear air and drawing well rather than blanketed behind the main.

In the 1930s someone put a prototype of the Aerorig on a Bembridge Redwing. After a couple of seasons it was banned because it completely outclassed the rest of the fleet.

What stops unstayed rigs taking over the sailing world is (a) cost (b) 'It can't be strong enough' (c) 'It doesn't look right without wire to hold it up' (d) 'If it were any good everyone would have one'.

 

[Tomahawk]

OK, here's my two pennorth. This is my rig:

......

Please tell us more about designer and builder...
She looks quite unique ... but I did see one pre mast instalation many years ago....

 

[Tomahawk]

I fess up to having standing rigging... It allows the mast to rotate as a wing..

I would like to experiment with twin masts as per Pete Goss's famous disaster... but that would take more money than I have..

 

[johnphilip]

Reversible?

Does the Aerorig rotated 180 degrees give the opportunity for sailing backwards much better than just pushing out the boom on an AWB?
Second mainsheet reeved to the bow and you have 360 degree manouveres and the chance to be an exhibitonist.

 

[snowleopard]

Please tell us more about designer and builder... .

Designer: Derek Kelsall
Builder: me
Mast by Freewing Masts, Inverness.

Does the Aerorig rotated 180 degrees give the opportunity for sailing backwards much better than just pushing out the boom on an AWB?
Second mainsheet reeved to the bow and you have 360 degree manouveres and the chance to be an exhibitonist.

Yes, you can sail backwards as efficiently as forwards by attaching a sheet to the end of the fore-boom.

 

[snowleopard]

I fess up to having standing rigging... It allows the mast to rotate as a wing..

I would like to experiment with twin masts as per Pete Goss's famous disaster... but that would take more money than I have..

Does your standing rigging allow 360° rotation? I recall Bullimore saying that the stayed rotating wings on Exide Challenger were a nightmare because you couldn't de-power them in heavy weather as they were restricted to about 60° either side of the centre line.

There are 5 cats around Millbrook with side-by-side rigs, some stayed, some unstayed, including a couple of junks.

 

[Poignard]

I need no convincing of the benefits (for the short-handed cruising yachtsman) of junk rig but would I buy a boat with it? No!

Because the problem with anything that isn't traditional (I mean traditional in Europe - not China!) or fashionable is that when you come to sell it very few people will want to buy it.

 

[chrisedwards]

Hello Parsifal - I agree with your logic but not the conclusion. In my experience it is far easier to sell junk rig boats (with freestanding masts - sorry for thread drift)- you are right - demand is small but supply is smaller.

I have bought/sold or been involved with the sale of about ten junk rigged boats in the last five years (and many more over my life)- buyers are willing to compromise considerably when it comes to the hull but not the rig.

When somebody phones you up - and they do - you know you have them because the competition is so little. (it costs a fortune to convert to junk). One test sail and they generally buy. Let me know when you are next at Newtown - the offer of a sail is still open. She is not for sale but I would be reluctant to sell your Twister!

I need no convincing of the benefits (for the short-handed cruising yachtsman) of junk rig but would I buy a boat with it? No!

Because the problem with anything that isn't traditional (I mean traditional in Europe - not China!) or fashionable is that when you come to sell it very few people will want to buy it.

 

[Grumpybear]

I need no convincing of the benefits (for the short-handed cruising yachtsman) of junk rig but would I buy a boat with it? No!

Because the problem with anything that isn't traditional (I mean traditional in Europe - not China!) or fashionable is that when you come to sell it very few people will want to buy it.

Our first boat in 1990 was a Newbridge Navigator with junk rig. After a year we sold her because we wanted something bigger (with room for two teenagers, a golden retriever and an Old English sheepdog, so went for a Leisure 23!!) and got what we paid for her. She sold quickly.

 

[snowleopard]

Our first boat in 1990 was a Newbridge Navigator with junk rig. After a year we sold her because we wanted something bigger (with room for two teenagers, a golden retriever and an Old English sheepdog, so went for a Leisure 23!!) and got what we paid for her. She sold quickly.

I think junk rig is fairly well accepted in a sector of the market, largely due to Jester and a few of her contemporaries. It's also a pretty low-tech low-stress rig and not expensive compared to conventional rigs. It's the high-tech stuff like mine that scares people.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I need no convincing of the benefits (for the short-handed cruising yachtsman) of junk rig but would I buy a boat with it? No!

Because the problem with anything that isn't traditional (I mean traditional in Europe - not China!) or fashionable is that when you come to sell it very few people will want to buy it.

I've just come back from Hong Kong, where I visited Aberdeen Harbour (big fishing harbour), and was living opposite Hebe Haven (big marina). Didn't see a single junk rig! There's one (1) Junk rigged vesssel that is for the tourists, and the rig on that doesn't look functional.

One wonders why the Chinese don't use their traditional rig?

 

[chrisedwards]

They did when I traded up the Yangtze and the China Seas in trampers in the 70's - thousands of them. The rivers were like main roads. Many different designs from river/canal sails to ocean going (East Africa) beauties. We used to discharge our cargo into them - I watched in wonder at the way they maneuvered. The result? - revolutionised my sailing - I could never enjoy sailing bermudan rigs again - they simply do not allow me to really sail the way I want to.

China was much poorer then. Engines have taken over.

I've just come back from Hong Kong, where I visited Aberdeen Harbour (big fishing harbour), and was living opposite Hebe Haven (big marina). Didn't see a single junk rig! There's one (1) Junk rigged vesssel that is for the tourists, and the rig on that doesn't look functional.

One wonders why the Chinese don't use their traditional rig?

 

[Keen_Ed]

One wonders why the Chinese don't use their traditional rig?

Why aren't all British boats rigged like Thames Barges/Smacks/Brixham Trawlers/Bawleys/Humber Yawls/Quay Punts (etc etc...)?

 

[BobPrell]

Why aren't all British boats rigged like Thames Barges/Smacks/Brixham Trawlers/Bawleys/Humber Yawls/Quay Punts (etc etc...)?

Re: Originally Posted by AntarcticPilot "One wonders why the Chinese don't use their traditional rig?"

I think it is what I call the Tyranny of the Racing Mentality, only that which goes fast on racing courses has any merit, no matter what it costs, how difficult it is to use, or how poorly it stays serviceable.

The chinese new prosperous classes are going to own western-style yachts to show that they have "made it".