why do we still have standing rigging?

BobPrell said:
Re: Originally Posted by AntarcticPilot "One wonders why the Chinese don't use their traditional rig?"

I think it is what I call the Tyranny of the Racing Mentality, only that which goes fast on racing courses has any merit, no matter what it costs, how difficult it is to use, or how poorly it stays serviceable.
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If that were the case, we would be starting to see AWBs with wing masts (a la America's cup).

As someone has alluded to, stays are an engineering device that are not out of place in the modern world. Bridges have them. Each of the different types of rigs mentioned in this thread have their pros and cons. As this thread has demonstrated, different people have different values which will lead them to like (or love, or accept, or hate) different types of rigs.

Based on numbers, for most people the trade-off of simplicity, performance, maintenance, reliability, cost (and insert any other number of things that are important / unimportant to some people) leads to a standard aluminium rig with stainless stays.

Where's the mystery?
 
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Keen_Ed said:
Why aren't all British boats rigged like Thames Barges/Smacks/Brixham Trawlers/Bawleys/Humber Yawls/Quay Punts (etc etc...)?
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I'd argue that we ARE rigged like western traditional vessels - but with improvements to take advantage of stronger materials. So, we use masthead rigs rather than gaff rigs because a long spar is easy in aluminium, but difficult/expensive in wood, and so on. But the basics are the same, and I could probably go aboard and make a good stab at sailing any of the above. But without tuition, I'd be a bit concerned about managing a junk - it is too different, and from a different tradition.

After all, the rig of a traditional square-rigger such as Nelsonian warships was designed to work within the limitations of wood, hemp and manpower. Steel masts and rigging with steam winches made large fore-and-aft rigs like the Preussen feasible - and more economic to run. We forget that square riggers had a lot of fore-and-aft canvas as well as the square sails; staysails between all the masts, jibs and a gaff mizzen. But because of the limitations of manpower, the sails had to be arranged in sizes that could be hauled by hand, and so weren't very efficient.
 
john_morris_uk said:
Its an interesting thought about Dyneema being cheaper but the last time I replaced our standing rigging, an appreciable part of the cost was all the end fittings and swaging. I don 't know what you would terminate Dyneema standing rigging with? Knots would lose strength of the line to some degree. I suspect that the size dyneema you would need would produce unacceptable windage?
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Splice onto Colligo terminations.

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bbg said:
As someone has alluded to, stays are an engineering device that are not out of place in the modern world. Bridges have them. ?
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Some bridges have them. Suspension bridges. But as an example thats about as relevant as saying that conkers are suspended. Or my oily trousers.

Our masts are there solely to hold up the aerofoils to the wind. And the aerofoils we use are inefficient in generating thrust, and difficult to get to the optimum shape. Hence the Americas cup trend. Now I can see that this sort of approach would be too expensive for ( say) Bav where cheap and cheeful is the way of things. But I would have thought that by now some mass market racing boats would be going in that direction. Maybe its the racing rules that are preventing it.
 
wotayottie said:
Some bridges have them. Suspension bridges. But as an example thats about as relevant as saying that conkers are suspended. Or my oily trousers.

Our masts are there solely to hold up the aerofoils to the wind. And the aerofoils we use are inefficient in generating thrust, and difficult to get to the optimum shape. Hence the Americas cup trend. Now I can see that this sort of approach would be too expensive for ( say) Bav where cheap and cheeful is the way of things. But I would have thought that by now some mass market racing boats would be going in that direction. Maybe its the racing rules that are preventing it.
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It might be racing rules, but it is more a question of practicality, I think. Wings can't be reefed or stowed. It would mean stepping the mast every time you wanted to go sailing, and restrict yourself to a specific wind band within which you could sail. In the class I used to race in I don't think the rules precluded either unstayed rigs or wings, but I don't think I'd want to try to cross the Atlantic in a rig I couldn't reef!

Racing boats do a lot of innovative things with their masts - wing shaped, rotating, canting, carbon, synthetic rigging - but for most boats (even racers) the best compromise is still some variation of stick-n-string. Wings (as opposed to wing shaped masts) are out for the reasons identified above, and unstayed rigs are out because a racing sailor wants to control the shape of the sail (by controlling the shape of the mast).

As an aside, the offshore class I used to race in specifically permitted kites, provided they were flown from the masthead. With no restriction on size. No-one has tried that yet, but I'd love to see it.

Edit - I think C Class cats use wings. Not sure about other classes.
 
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A class cats and Int Moths have tried wing masts. Big downside is that if you capsize, there's a great danger in damaging the wing. Also, there was a measurement problem with the Moths.

The C class cats use them, but they're hardly a common racing class. Their setup/takedown time is significant, as they step the wing every time they go sailing, and take it down afterwards. Which means you need a very large tent or shed to keep it in.

For bigger boats, they're a huge pain. If you leave a wing mast up, you have to be absolutely sure that it can't get stuck if you're in a marina - and you need a free standing wing mast. Far safer to be on a swinging mooring - which is what the Americas Cup people do. And even then, if it's forecast to be windy, the windage and dangers are such, they take the mast down - which implies having a crane available at all times. No just leaving the boat on Sun eve for the week.
 
Just a point of clarity. In my post I distinguished between wing masts (as used by, for example, the mega-tri Banque Populaire V) and wings or wing sails, as used my the new America's Cup boats and C Class cats. The former are variations on the typical mast with rigging. The latter are truly 3D rigid wings.
 
I think what the Vendee shows us is that for best performance in all conditions a traditional stayed mast is still the best compromise. Wing masts are heavy, wing sails can be even more so. Yes you can make them out of carbon, but then a stayed carbon mast will be lighter still.
 
Woodlouse said:
I think what the Vendee shows us is that for best performance in all conditions a traditional stayed mast is still the best compromise. Wing masts are heavy, wing sails can be even more so. Yes you can make them out of carbon, but then a stayed carbon mast will be lighter still.
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Except the winner of the Vendee had a rotating wing mast and deck spreaders to reduce shroud tensions. Don't really work with frequent marina use.

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