Why do so few cruising sail boats have a protected helm?

[dom]

I really do not understand everyone's reference to cold miserable weather in the UK. I have lived here since birth & am perfectly happy sailing in the summer months ( taken as April to October then I have had enough of sailing anyway) & do not worry about the weather....

So on my boat we do not have a tent or spray dodgers of any sort. (We have sailed on boats with them). We find the weather most agreeable for almost all of the time & never need complain because it is the norm & we have learned to enjoy it.

Plus our boat sail infinitely better than some of the daft looking caravans we see drifting about like large clods of seaweed drifting with the ocean currents.

I have a question: why not buy a Nordhaven, Nelson or something if one yearns for the inside sofa experience?

And I agree, I've never understood how can one properly sail a boat while sitting inside without being able to properly feel the wind, see the gusts on the water and watch the waves?

Incidentally, I don't use dodgers either; it's nice to loll around on the upwind coamings on passage and have an uninterrupted view all around. That said, when it's snowing; well yes I am then jealous of that Nordhaven

 

[Daydream believer]

Genuinely, I'm happy for you DB. Reminds me of Mr Tranona, speaking last autumn...
The point being, they have no desire to sail in the winter because the design of their boats makes it as harsh as being in a dinghy.

Not quite right Dan. Many places are closed for the winter. Places such as Ostend shut off the marina pontoon supplies etc. Dieppe & Lowestoft, for instance, are miserable, in the winter. The Alderney Race or Barfleur etc. are not the sort of places to be sailing in unpredictable weather regardless of whether or not one has a lid.

So the places to go are limited. I, for one, do not enjoy just sailing round in circles. When I go cruiser sailing I do it to go somewhere.

Plus - in my case-in the winter, I do rescue boat duty for my yacht club & have done so for quite a few years so you will see me out on the water sitting in a RIB watching dinghy sailors. - Assuming that I am not actually sailing my own Phantom or my Squib that is!!
So do not assume that everyone just stops . I know a number of cruiser sailors who own dinghies & carry on sailing. Sailing activities do not have to totally stop just because the cruiser comes out for maintenance.

 

[Greenheart]

Apologies, D.B. Just observing what most (not all) people do and justify, in ways I can't imagine copying. I too volunteer for club RIB duties when it's cold, only because it's required by membership. As to whether there's anywhere to go in winter...I'm around the Solent, Poole, Chichester; cheerfully busy in summer but fabulously unspoilt in winter. I'd sail all winter, here...with a wheelhouse.

...why not buy a Nordhaven, Nelson [motorboat] or something if one yearns for the inside sofa experience?

That's so playground! "You can either do it the hard way, or go and play some different game". :biggrin-new: A boat with a choice of helm positions needn't preclude enjoyment of the elements on deck or the comforts of steering from below.

But if market forces have virtually eradicated production of motor-sailers, with gradually fewer old ones available secondhand, the appeal of sailing to anyone who doesn't like sitting outside in cold winds, being pelted by whatever is falling from the sky, is narrowed - squished into the summer months when even dinghies can be enjoyable.

The psychology of open-cockpit ownership seems to say proudly, "sailing isn't always comfortable, but we suffer for our passion"... (do any families believe that?)...and the financial cost is jaw-dropping - 12 months of fees for just a few months when use is enviable. That's why non-sailors regard boat-owners as barmy. But the oftener it's a pleasure to use, the less barmy it is to pay for.

I'm at the point where I want to buy...but from all the thousands of sailboats for sale, there are very few that I actually want to own.

 

[RupertW]

Apologies, D.B. Just observing what most (not all) people do and justify, in ways I can't imagine copying. I too volunteer for club RIB duties when it's cold, only because it's required by membership. As to whether there's anywhere to go in winter...I'm around the Solent, Poole, Chichester; cheerfully busy in summer but fabulously unspoilt in winter. I'd sail all winter, here...with a wheelhouse.



That's so playground! "You can either do it the hard way, or go and play some different game". :biggrin-new: A boat with a choice of helm positions needn't preclude enjoyment of the elements on deck or the comforts of steering from below.

But if market forces have virtually eradicated production of motor-sailers, with gradually fewer old ones available secondhand, the appeal of sailing to anyone who doesn't like sitting outside in cold winds, being pelted by whatever is falling from the sky, is narrowed - squished into the summer months when even dinghies can be enjoyable.

The psychology of open-cockpit ownership seems to say proudly, "sailing isn't always comfortable, but we suffer for our passion"... (do any families believe that?)...and the financial cost is jaw-dropping - 12 months of fees for just a few months when use is enviable. That's why non-sailors regard boat-owners as barmy. But the oftener it's a pleasure to use, the less barmy it is to pay for.

I'm at the point where I want to buy...but from all the thousands of sailboats for sale, there are very few that I actually want to own.

I think that's because you don't really want to sail. You can have the experience you desire far more cheaply by watching La vagabonde or Delos from your own sofa.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think that's because you don't really want to sail. You can have the experience you desire far more cheaply by watching La vagabonde or Delos from your own sofa.

I only watched a couple of copies of Delos & thought how boring. It reminded me of some of those livaboard books. One that comes to mind is , I believe, by Liz Copeland.( might be wrong about that) We went up the hill to this old monastery. We then went up another hill to another old relic & so on. We met some friends- No you did not , you met a couple who were stuck in an existence like you with little else to live for. It really is hard to do if you had a social life at home.
When my wife & i headed for the Med we were so struck by the ex bank managers boasting about their retirement pensions & what have you that we were soon p..d of with them. We met lots of wives who were bored stiff of the "dream". Some came aboard & poured their hearts out to my wife. One poor woman was in tears. As for friends- you meet someone , possibly a couple of times & more often than not that is it. They are not"friends" they are people you have met & spoken to & passed by.
So as for films of Delos & co., good luck to them - I do not bother to watch again-- & they do look a little false, one cannot deny

Sorry for the thread drift !!!

 

[pagoda]

Genuinely, I'm happy for you DB. Reminds me of Mr Tranona, speaking last autumn...



The point being, they have no desire to sail in the winter because the design of their boats makes it as harsh as being in a dinghy.

I only sail the dinghy in summer - it's ruddy tortuous in winter. But I'm reluctant to buy a yacht which won't increase how long I spend afloat. A covered cockpit will offer many days per year when I'd recoil from sailing in an open cockpit. That makes much better value.

The fact that so much UK summer weather rivals winter for unpredictability and disappointment, spells the same solution to me.

I sail dinghies at time in the "summer" -wetsuit only -North sea, almost 57 North. Plenty of fun but never that warm.Acceptable.
I have sailed yachts with inside helms and yachts with biminis. I dislike both and am constantly aware of the lack of visual and tactile feedback from sails and weather. I judge what the wind is doing by looking at sails, feeling the helm and feeling the wind around my face. I would much rather wear the correct gear and stay outside thanks. If some folks are happy to be inside- fine by me. Not for me however. It takes all sorts.

 

[Greenheart]

I think that's because you don't really want to sail.

That reaction, I don't understand. Was it a joke? I hope you'll elucidate.

I already sail, very keenly, on every day per summer when I can singlehand the Osprey...and I love it...but I also know when a day is too cold, miserable, or too ruddy lively to be pleasurable. On such days, I don't go out; and I never wish in retrospect that I had.

I guess identifying grotty weather as a reason not to sail, isn't shared by a lot of yacht-owners. Is that because allowing oneself to be deterred from sailing by cold wet weather, makes each of the fewer days one does go out, outrageously expensive in the UK?

Having got great summer sailing in a cheap old dinghy, I'm ready to spend thousands on a yacht. Is it unreasonable to expect some extra value, which was unavailable in the dinghy? Little things, like, I dunno...having the option to steer inside when it's foul, out?

 

[Blue Sunray]

I think that's because you don't really want to sail.

That reaction, I don't understand. Was it a joke? I hope you'll elucidate.

+1, sounds like pretentious bollocks to me. Of the sort that is too often sprouted by a Chichester to Studland Chay Blyth.

On my own part having spent my life sailing I now own a Motor Boat with inner and outer helm. I just can't get used to helming 'downstairs', utterly illogical but it just doesn't seem right.

 

[Daydream believer]

I guess identifying grotty weather as a reason not to sail, isn't shared by a lot of yacht-owners. Is that because allowing oneself to be deterred from sailing by cold wet weather, makes each of the fewer days one does go out, outrageously expensive in the UK?

Having got great summer sailing in a cheap old dinghy, I'm ready to spend thousands on a yacht. Is it unreasonable to expect some extra value, which was unavailable in the dinghy? Little things, like, I dunno...having the option to steer inside when it's foul, out?

So are you saying that the real reason that one might want a tent is because one cannot afford to go sailing otherwise, Is that it?
Your last post certainly seems to suggest that.
That puts a different slant on the reason to have one .

 

[Greenheart]

Not sure where the tent question came from, DB.

But I meant that if one is determined to sail even in weather when one's guests would surely wish they hadn't been invited, and if by calling it fun and persisting, one can say, "this is how I spent seventy days last year", then the high cost of the boat, new kit, maintenance, berthing, insurance etc, may start to look reasonable, divided by the time spent (and in principle, enjoyed) afloat...

...whereas, moving up from dinghying, I'll want the option to get the hell out of the weather when it's foul. So a boat that routinely made me wish I wasn't helming because it's open to the elements, would be used less...making fewer days to divide the cost by.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. The nicer it is to be aboard, the more it'll be used. The more it's used, the better value it represents.

I'd have spent today aboard a boat with an inside helm. Days in Feb too, and all January. I haven't wanted to launch the Osprey yet.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'd have spent today aboard a boat with an inside helm.

I was on my boat for a couple of hours today !!

 

[Saguday]

If you sail on your own and are a rufty-tufty type you can set your boat up however you like , unprotected, open to the elements, eschew the comforts of an interior helm, whatever.

If, however, you sail with your wife and family, and don't take into account what it takes to ensure their comfort and enjoyment, then you're an idiot. A sure way to end up sailing on your own (see first paragraph).

All imho of course

 

[wipe_out]

If, however, you sail with your wife and family, and don't take into account what it takes to ensure their comfort and enjoyment, then you're an idiot. A sure way to end up sailing on your own (see first paragraph).

Thats the main point I think and the reason we switched from an open boat to a pilothouse so in looking at sail boat options it's disappointing there are very few (in a reasonable price range anyway) pilothouse options..

I do find it interesting that there seems to be a definite dislike to the aesthetic aspect of a sail boat with a pilothouse but then a canopy over the cockpit seems acceptable.. Maybe because the canopy can be removed? From my perspective the canopies on the back look terrible but are a necessary evil because there are no reasonably priced pilot house boats..

Oh well.. Guess if we do make the switch I need to try and work out what the best way is to make everyone comfortable..

 

[Lucky Duck]

I'd have spent today aboard a boat with an inside helm.

I was on my boat for a couple of hours today !!

We were also down today but didn't sail as it was rather windy, don't see how having a wheel house would have solved that

 

[Greenheart]

If we assume nobody would buy a boat, then only afterwards realise that his purchase required him to endure conditions he dislikes...

...we may also say, no-one who selects a boat which can't be helmed from shelter, is likely later to see the benefits of that option.

On that basis, proven over eleven pages here, it's probably not worth trying to persuade either side, of the other's points of view!

Have a good summer gentlemen, I hope it stays fine for you. :encouragement:

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I quite like wind and rain.

The complexity of society lends itself to almost looking upon the elements as a constant threat that should be defended at all costs. Perhaps we are too socially conditioned to see the simplicity of sailing a boat or walking up a mountain.

If we saw a cormorant one day wearing goggles and a snorkel we may consider that he is missing out on his spiritual path. I wonder what he thinks of us. Perhaps he feels that we are trying not to be part of nature but always superior to it with all the anxiousness that goes with it.

You cannot of course expect other people on the boat to be like you. There's the rub.

 

[NormanS]

I have a deck-saloon ketch, with a wheel outside protected by a sprayhood. We always sail from the outside helm. But if it's cold and miserable, and we happen to be motoring, we'll use the inside helm, cosy and dry with ducted heat from the engine cooling system.
Best of both worlds, I reckon.

 

[rotrax]

I think the answer goes back to the philosophy that says Sailing, like motorcycling, is to be enjoyed, not endured.

As a callow youth with his first motorbikeI remember riding in the pissing winter rain wearing my leather jacket, blue jeans with my white seaboot socks folded over my black leather boots. Probably checking in shop windows how cool I looked! I must have certainly looked wet!

I had wet weather gear but it was only worn going to work, not strutting my stuff down the 59 club or Chelsea Bridge.

Last season our oilies and boots were only used twice, both times berthing in the rain.

One of the reasons we chose the IP SP Cruiser was its side by side seating at the helm-two side by side pedestal mounted adjustable seats that can swivel if required and move fore and aft.

Not many other vessels have that option.

 

[alahol2]

...whereas, moving up from dinghying, I'll want the option to get the hell out of the weather when it's foul. So a boat that routinely made me wish I wasn't helming because it's open to the elements, would be used less...making fewer days to divide the cost by.

I can't help but feel you are coming toward cruiser sailing with the wrong attitude. I don't know of a single owner who thinks in terms of cost per day, it just doesn't figure in their mentality. Yes, you will often hear them complaining about the cost of replacements, insurance, berthing etc but that's the same as complaining about taxes.
By all means get yourself a boat with an inside helm, that's your choice, but I feel if you try to justify it with economic calculations you are on a hiding to nothing. There can be no justification. You just choose to spend your money on sailing rather than something else.

 

[thecommander]

I suspect if your family don't enjoy the wind, rain and spray in their faces then they probably won't enjoy the 'excessive' heeling when sailing upwind on a blustery day - protected helm or not. A 40 foot AWB can feel like a dinghy upwind in the right breeze, whereas a 40 foot mobo will feel more comfortable upwind at displacement speeds - sea state dependant obviously!