Why do so few cruising sail boats have a protected helm?

[LONG_KEELER]

What about Kenneth More and Jack Hawkins in those black and whites ?

Never a sprayhood or wheelhouse in sight. Proves that the British aren't really happy unless suffering a bit.

We probably lost our motorbike industry when some bounder in another country decided that kicking over to start needed a damn battery. Where was the fun in not kicking over a BEEza Goldie 500 ?

 

[rotrax]

What about Kenneth More and Jack Hawkins in those black and whites ?

Never a sprayhood or wheelhouse in sight. Proves that the British aren't really happy unless suffering a bit.

We probably lost our motorbike industry when some bounder in another country decided that kicking over to start needed a damn battery. Where was the fun in not kicking over a BEEza Goldie 500 ?

My totally knackered right knee is due to kicking over large capacity motorbikes-1963 to 2008 nonstop.I retired from being a Classic, Vintage and Veteran motorcycle specialist in 2008.

Standing on the right hand footrest of a speedway bike and taking the shocks through a straightened knee joint did not help either!

Many years ago-during the Czech "Velvet Revolution" I was in Prague as a guest of Motokov the Czech company that handled their Jawa and CZ motorbikes.

I visited Tynec na Sazavou, the site of the Jawa factory where a new four stroke model was being developed. Jorg Cap showed me castings and drawings of the proposed range of modular engines.

I noted no provision for an electric start and mentioned this. Jorg was dismissive-you dont need such a" device on a motorbike!" he stated.

I agreed with him-"you dont need one, I dont need one. But its 1990 and the motorcycle market DEMANDS one! If you want to sell lots of motorbikes you must pander to the non enthusiast non macho customers as well."

I would like to think this was taken on board and acted upon. We will never know-with the end of communism the factory was closed for high volume production quite soon after.

For the odd ride kicking over a Gold Star was not a problem. The problem was getting them to start reliably under ALL conditions-especially if you had to get to work on time.

The Lucas Magdyno was, after all, one of Joe Lucas's little jokes.........................................

 

[Saguday]

But, fast approaching 70, bad knees and a tweaky arthritic wrist the Island Packet SP Cruiser with its big engine, modest rig and electric winch suits very well.

I have not recieved a bucket full of seawater in the face since we got her....

Ha! Being an Island Packet owner I should have mentioned the SP Cruiser which I think is an excellent attempt to bring the concept of the Fisher boats up into the 21st Century (I like Fishers too by the way). I met Bob Johnson when he and Bill Bolin of IPY were getting the first SP Cruiser ready for the boat show in Annapolis (it was berthed not far from where we were at the time) so had a chance to crawl all over it and ask loads of questions.

At first I didn't get it, it was a funny looking thing and I wasn't convinced it would sail very well but they explained the rationale and thinking behind it and it's grown on me over time. Their main aim was to build a boat that kept people sailing as they got older when otherwise, at least in America, they might have either given up or moved from sailing into a trawler. The secret is the big wheelhouse and a massive multi-purpose electric winch, so all the sail handling can be done from inside too. I never got to sail one but I did see some people taking that one out for a test sail just off Rock Hall on the Chesapeake after the show and on a reach in a F4 it certainly flew along, I remember being quite surprised.

Of course they are at the pricey end so a limited market, but I thought it would be a good boat to own in the north of the UK/Scotland. I hope IPY's new owners make a success of it, me and the Mrs have it on the shortlist for when we're a bit older.

 

[Greenheart]

I don't believe lack of a wheel shelter constrains the use of my boat...A good sprayhood provides more than enough protection...

Alright Mr T. I reckon that's all that matters...although what each man (and his other half) regards as 'enough protection', is sure to vary.

What about Kenneth More and Jack Hawkins in those black and whites...the British aren't really happy unless suffering a bit.

This Brit is never happier than when he's watching those old-timers smiling their way through discomfort and fear, but doesn't envy them much.

 

[rotrax]

The SP Cruiser certainly has stood up to our expectations so far. We covered about 1600NM last year including the delivery trip.

It did exactly what Bob Johnson expected-kept us sailing offshore instead of pottering about in sheltered harbours.

For both of us the extended swim platform makes access to the boat so much easier-no more climbing up the freeboard. First Mate was on a steep learning curve coming into finger berths astern last year. So far so good-not too many drama's!

I intend to install a Westerbeke Genset in April, prepare for two seasons in Ireland and see how we get on living aboard for 5 or 6 months at a time.

Your observation re being a good boat for the North and Scotland are bang on. We were in the Clyde for a month in 2015-it was 7 degrees celsius in mid July! Unsurprisingly, that helped our decision to buy Jarrow Lily.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

My totally knackered right knee is due to kicking over large capacity motorbikes-1963 to 2008 nonstop.I retired from being a Classic, Vintage and Veteran motorcycle specialist in 2008.

Standing on the right hand footrest of a speedway bike and taking the shocks through a straightened knee joint did not help either!

Many years ago-during the Czech "Velvet Revolution" I was in Prague as a guest of Motokov the Czech company that handled their Jawa and CZ motorbikes.

I visited Tynec na Sazavou, the site of the Jawa factory where a new four stroke model was being developed. Jorg Cap showed me castings and drawings of the proposed range of modular engines.

I noted no provision for an electric start and mentioned this. Jorg was dismissive-you dont need such a" device on a motorbike!" he stated.

I agreed with him-"you dont need one, I dont need one. But its 1990 and the motorcycle market DEMANDS one! If you want to sell lots of motorbikes you must pander to the non enthusiast non macho customers as well."

I would like to think this was taken on board and acted upon. We will never know-with the end of communism the factory was closed for high volume production quite soon after.

For the odd ride kicking over a Gold Star was not a problem. The problem was getting them to start reliably under ALL conditions-especially if you had to get to work on time.

The Lucas Magdyno was, after all, one of Joe Lucas's little jokes.........................................

Ouch.... Sounds painful but i'm sure you had some great days like me enjoying the bikes.

I wonder when the Royal Navy stopped open bridges on their ships. The sale of Dufel Coats must have taken a hit.

 

[scotty123]

I wouldn't say the interior wheel steering was particularly effective on older Southerlies. Have you ever tried to sail something like a Southerly 95 using the interior wheel? I had one for about 24 years and used the wheel twice when wet and windy in around 19,000 miles. Very little feel and you needed to twirl the tiny wheel constantly. Just about OK in light weather. I always used the autohelm when down below in wet weather or overnight.

I did really appreciate the ability to go below when not very windy. I do remember one sail in light wind and steady drizzle. We slowly overhauled a similarly sized yacht and I gave a polite wave and smiled as we slowly passed. His response was to scowl, mutter a profanity and hunch back down in his oilies. I suppose that the sight of me in shirt sleeves in a centrally heated cabin with a mug of coffee in my hand was the last straw.

Why an "interior wheel", when the interior autohelm control can do the job?

 

[Otter]

Because the mass-market models are designed for the Med and Carribean, especially for charter fleets. Economies of scale make these so much cheaper that boats properly designed for northern-european weather have struggled to sell well. Also, there's a prejudice that anything with an inside steering position (and not obviously designed to shunt icebergs in Greenland) must be one of those horrible motorsailer things and therefore rubbish at sailing

Pete

Exactly what he said

One of the issues has to do with windward performance. True sailing boats are deisgned to minimise windage. A decent sized wheelhouse will create a fair bit of windage, which in anything under aorund 40ft tends to reduce performance to windward. Few Motor sailers sail well to windward for this reason. There are exceptions of course, but there is always some cost in lost windward performace.

And what he said as well, you sacrifice windward VMG and gain remarkably nice English summers and surprisingly nice Spring and autumn weather as well

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Pete

Well, there are skidoos and skidoos, as well! The ones used by BAS aren't fast (about 30mph tops), but they can tow a couple of nansen sledges each - made by bombardier. The main reason they are used is that you can get them with all the gear required for a field camp in a Twin Otter. Nothing with a cab would fit, or even come close. If there was a vehicle with a cab and the required pulling power that would fit in a Twin Otter (and BAS' ones have modified cargo doors so a snowmobile can fit), I'm sure BAS would try it. The Sno-Cat type of vehicle as pictured above is really only useful either for a very long oversnow journey starting at a point where there is ship access (rare these days), or for use round a base, where they do all the heavy moving.

Incidentally, both skidoo and snowmobile are actually trademarks, but I forget the generic term!

 

[Greenheart]

I did really appreciate the ability to go below...I remember one sail in steady drizzle. We overhauled a similarly-sized yacht and I gave a polite wave and smiled as we slowly passed. His response was to scowl, mutter a profanity and hunch back down in his oilies. I suppose that the sight of me in shirt sleeves in a centrally-heated cabin with a mug of coffee in my hand was the last straw.

I think that's the point. The open-cockpit skipper has good reason to be glad of his choice, in brochure-photo weather. In real life he more often has reason to scowl up at the sky.

I always hope for fine weather, but I'm never surprised when it doesn't arrive. A bright deck-saloon (which needn't obstruct views from the cockpit) will suit me best in the UK.

 

[davidjohn]

hi this is my first yacht with a bimimi not even opend it yet i thought that it was a sun shade do you use it to keep the rain off when sailing.

 

[RupertW]

hi this is my first yacht with a bimimi not even opend it yet i thought that it was a sun shade do you use it to keep the rain off when sailing.

Yes. It's not particularly effective at rain protection in a wind but when motoring or at marina/anchor it's great if a shower comes down. Fortunately we mostly use it against the heat of the sun particularly on the wooden cockpit seat and floor covering which gets far too hot very quickly.

I tend to fold it away if the sun is out but not baking and for a night sail because I want to be able to see the sails and at night a quick glance around the edge of the bimini isn't good enough. But many people keep them up all the time.

 

[prv]

many people keep them up all the time.

In hot places, that is. Not many biminis in the UK.

Pete

 

[Saguday]

hi this is my first yacht with a bimimi not even opend it yet i thought that it was a sun shade do you use it to keep the rain off when sailing.

Yep, also very handy as it holds our solar panels up

 

[mjcoon]

Fortunately we mostly use it against the heat of the sun particularly on the wooden cockpit seat and floor covering which gets far too hot very quickly.

On an early flotilla yacht we didn't have a bimini. But the cockpit floor had a large dark metal socket into which fitted the pillar that supported the table. Naturally it got hot in the sunshine and delivered heat efficiently to bare feet. The only defence was frequently-applied seawater!

Mike.

 

[BrianH]

Protected helm positions are not just for northern European latitudes; I'm very happy with mine - in the northern Adriatic. It is ideal in the unstable weather we get in early summer with frequent thunderstorms and acts as a bimini in the hot sun that appears most other times - and it houses the solar panel inconspicuously. I can open the forward doghouse window to get a through-draught and when not sailing I can fit the top section of the cockpit cover that extends the bimini effect (see below). Incidentally, that top cover has complementary side and rear panels that totally enclose the cockpit when moored and make a very cosy area in bad weather, which can be remarkably frequent at times.

I have a wheel on the forward bulkhead and a tiller mounted on the rudder stern-post and can choose which to use on the conditions prevailing. After eleven years of satisfied sailing I wouldn't want to change for a faster performance, she suits my style of cruising perfectly. Yes, I know about the visual shed-effect but I still love her, "warts and all".

 

[shan]

I'm afraid that is the reason, but the OP's question remains an ineradicable lament by many who sail (or who would like to sail, if it wasn't so comfortless) in a region where the weather is cold and wet, much more often than not.

It makes me laugh when owners of open-cockpit yachts say that the raw open chilliness is the whole point, and that "you just need warmer gear". I'm glad if they're happy, but it doesn't suit me. I have a car for when it's cold and wet; and I love to cycle when it's not. I wouldn't buy a car without roof or windows, just on the basis that it's pleasant to be outside, on a few days and nights in summer.

Unfortunately, I think most yachts are only used for a few weekends per annum; so clearly their unsuitability for our prevalent climate is accepted by buyers. Their high purchase price and the cost of storage/maintenance, in return for how rarely they're really a pleasure to use, makes them very expensive - which is apparently part of the appeal, as it implies the owner had money to burn.

My own conclusion is that the fizz-and-thrills of sailing are available in a decent dinghy, while for relaxing distance-cruising, I'll want a motor-sailer. The pity is that it must necessarily be an old motor-sailer, because hardly anyone is building them now.

I completely agree. I have absolutely no desire to be cold and miserable.

 

[Daydream believer]

I really do not understand everyone's reference to cold miserable weather in the UK. I have lived here since birth & am perfectly happy sailing in the summer months ( taken as April to October then I have had enough of sailing anyway) & do not worry about the weather. Exception being when it is really windy & sailing can be dangerous so it is best to stay in port. I admit I am not entirely happy with snow though !!.
Being retired I sail about 2000 miles each year so I am not a weekend sailor.
Rain does not worry me. In fact my wife & I really enjoy walking the Scottish borders in the rain watching the small waterfalls form down through the hillsides. It is part of UK life. (Having lived on Scottish borders as a child for a while I am not even bothered by the mozzies as badly as some whimps)
Sailing from Bradwell, the south coast & from Holland round to Brest the weather is usually pretty good anyway. My two round UK trips were not marred just because of a few chilly days or a bit of rain in the highlands. I quite enjoyed it!!. Although mist did spoil a few views.
So when one talks about sailing in tents in the rain & passing jealous sailors scowling at them then it certainly is not me doing the scowling. My Mustos work perfectly Ok , they are comfortable & if one actually counts the hours sailing in rain it is actually very small. The same goes for the cold. In fact when my wife & I cruised to Biscay in 2004 the coldest part was at night on the coast of France . Even then we slept with the hatch open.
So on my boat we do not have a tent or spray dodgers of any sort. (We have sailed on boats with them). We find the weather most agreeable for almost all of the time & never need complain because it is the norm & we have learned to enjoy it. My 31 ft boat is fairly dry ( Unlike my Stella which was like a submarine upwind) so we do not often get buckets of water in the face & it is not hard to turn away for a second or two.
Plus our boat sail infinitely better than some of the daft looking caravans we see drifting about like large clods of seaweed drifting with the ocean currents.

 

[Greenheart]

I really do not understand everyone's reference to cold miserable weather in the UK.

I envy your constitution Daydream, but I don't share it. :biggrin-new:

Yes, I know about the visual shed-effect but I still love her...

Why apologise? Blame conservative perspective; entrenched notions of what's not tolerable, vs. what's palpably well worth having...

...having turned the corner after 40 years' salivating stupidly over brochure-pics of boats built for trade winds and warm climes, I now look at a high-top like Barnacle's Curlew and feel strongest approval...

...whereas the same hull without a cockpit hard-top, isn't nearly as attractive for use 50 degrees north, if there's an R in the month.

I completely agree. I have absolutely no desire to be cold...

...glad I'm not alone. :encouragement:

 

[Greenheart]

I am perfectly happy sailing in the summer months (taken as April to October then I have had enough of sailing anyway)...

Genuinely, I'm happy for you DB. Reminds me of Mr Tranona, speaking last autumn...

For most people sailing is a summer activity and they have no desire to sail in the winter. Plenty of other pleasurable things to do in the winter!

The point being, they have no desire to sail in the winter because the design of their boats makes it as harsh as being in a dinghy.

I only sail the dinghy in summer - it's ruddy tortuous in winter. But I'm reluctant to buy a yacht which won't increase how long I spend afloat. A covered cockpit will offer many days per year when I'd recoil from sailing in an open cockpit. That makes much better value.

The fact that so much UK summer weather rivals winter for unpredictability and disappointment, spells the same solution to me.