Who was the give way vessel?

[JumbleDuck]

The Colregs refer to the side the wind is on. They qualify this by saying for the purpose of the regs that is deemed to be the side opposite the mainsail. This does not help greatly in the situation under discussion where the main is not set.

Don;t they somewhere define "mainsail" as something along the lines of "principal fore-and-aft sail", in which case it might be the genoa if there is no other in use.

I suppose all this confusion is why the rules used to separate port tack, starboard tack and running free before the wind vessels.

 

[syneraida]

I am amazed that this has taken 7 pages of discussion!!! The rules are quite clear and if the OP does not understand them I suggest he re-reads them, gets some training or does not go sailing.

Sorry to be so draconian about, but I have been on the receiving end of "Hey ho!" sailors, and have often had to alter course to avoid collision when the other vessel was the give way vessel.

It does not matter if a pole was used or not, there is no mention in the rules about a poled out headsail.
If the "mainsail" is not set then the next largest sail flying should be considered the "mainsail"

Either way the above points are largely irrelevant, if RULE 12 (below) was understood then it would not have mattered what tack the OP was on (in this situation). He was always the give way vessel regardless of the tack his vessel was on.

FYI:
Rule 12 - Sailing vessels

(a). When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

(i). when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

(ii). when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;

(iii). if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b). For the purpose of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the
mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft
sail is carried.

 

[RichardS]

It does not matter if a pole was used or not, there is no mention in the rules about a poled out headsail.
If the "mainsail" is not set then the next largest sail flying should be considered the "mainsail"

Sorry but you've missed the point of the thread.

The pole is critical because, on headsail only, if the sail is poled out it might well be on the windward side of the boat whereas if the headsail is not poled out it will always be on the leeward side of the boat. If the foresail is considered as equivalent to the mainsail, it could be flying on either tack.

Richard

 

[john_morris_uk]

Sorry but you've missed the point of the thread.

The pole is critical because, on headsail only, if the sail is poled out it might well be on the windward side of the boat whereas if the headsail is not poled out it will always be on the leeward side of the boat. If the foresail is considered as equivalent to the mainsail, it could be flying on either tack.

Richard

Re-read the rules! As I posted previously, the rules define which side the wind is coming from by stating its the opposite side to the main fore and aft sail. You can sail by the lee with the wind on your port quarter and still be on starboard tack. I think there's an assumption that in the absence of the mainsail the Genoa has become the main fore and aft sail.

 

[lpdsn]

This as an area where a season or two spent racing would really help the OP. Although the RRS & ColRegs do differ in some areas, the basics of port/starboard windward/leeward are pretty near identical. He'd quickly learn to judge in a moment which boat is stand-on and how to take avoiding action.

 

[RichardS]

Re-read the rules! As I posted previously, the rules define which side the wind is coming from by stating its the opposite side to the main fore and aft sail. You can sail by the lee with the wind on your port quarter and still be on starboard tack. I think there's an assumption that in the absence of the mainsail the Genoa has become the main fore and aft sail.

Re-read the post I quoted. I know the rules!

Richard

 

[john_morris_uk]

Re-read the post I quoted. I know the rules!

Richard

May I humbly suggest your post is ambiguous. I've re read it and can see that you and I might be in complete agreement. It's also possible to interpret what you say differently.

 

[LittleSister]

I wonder if there is a situation where Colregs does not give a clear answer (and yes I know about duty to avoid.) ?

There are no 'crossing' rules in the Colregs for vessels under oars (despite such vessels being catered for explicitly elsewhere in the Colregs), so (according to the RYA legal department as well as common sense) when a vessel under oars crosses the path of another vessel (whether its under oars, power or sail) both have simply a duty to avoid a collision, unless they're in a situation covered by the overtaking, narrow channels, restricted ability, etc. regs.

And no (before anyone bothers to write to suggest it), vessels under oars are not power driven vessels under the Colregs (even if an oar is a lever, and a lever meet some definitions of machinery)!

I'm sure there must be other examples where there are no situation specific rules, and the general regulations must be followed.

Do I remember correctly that there is no exemption from the requirements for a look out and taking avoiding action for anchored vessels?

 

[myquest]

I was sailing with genoa poled out, a very light wind directly from astern.

May I chuck a log on to this fire and suggest that even though the other boat was the stand on vessel he may have been in a far better position to make a course alteration due to having more steerage. The OP has not expanded on how well he was able to maneuver on his downwind course and may well have been barely moving. His starting off the engine, all be it belated, would suggest just that. Had it been an enginless boat what should have been his action?

 

[pmagowan]

May I chuck a log on to this fire and suggest that even though the other boat was the stand on vessel he may have been in a far better position to make a course alteration due to having more steerage. The OP has not expanded on how well he was able to maneuver on his downwind course and may well have been barely moving. His starting off the engine, all be it belated, would suggest just that. Had it been an enginless boat what should have been his action?

Early and obvious!

 

[Babylon]

This is the stuff that I find interesting:

If you don't think that IRPCS cater adequately for dynamic situations then I humbly suggest you are not applying them properly. [...] There's a caveat in the rules that says if you start off as the give way vessel, your actions can't make you become a stand on vessel.

Can we explore this in a little more detail? I can't recall the exact tacks and windward situations, but do remember a situation on a school boat beating with two reefs in heavy weather in the Eastern Solent not far from shallow water in the Ryde area, where one minute we were the GW vessel relative to another yacht, then - having tacked - we suddenly became the SO vessel, and our instructor was quite vocal about the change! Is this not the sort of 'dynamic situation' you refer to? At what range exactly do the the IRPCS come into effect?

May I chuck a log on to this fire and suggest that even though the other boat was the stand on vessel he may have been in a far better position to make a course alteration due to having more steerage.

I agree, but the problem is, as the GW vessel, you can't either rely on the other guy to have assimilated the constraints you are facing (can he be expected to see your thin, sky-coloured pole?), nor can you expect him to show any such consideration. If he does by making a clear and early alteration in course/speed before you get into a sweat, then you can bless him and get on with making the tea, but the prudent thing is to assume nothing and prepare to alter your own course.

My own byword when sailing is to avoid 'embarrassing' (a notion from Paul Boissier's book "Understanding the Rules of the Road") the other vessel if both possible and within the rules.

 

[Seven Spades]

Although we talk of tack, Rule 12 doesn't.



So technically it surely doesn't matter which side he has the Genny poled out ?

Wrong, it is all about the setting of the head sail. So if you are polled out to port and the wind is to port you are still on a starboard tack.


I am amazed that the OP does not know the answer to this question. He is a danger to other boat users and should get more training.

 

[Uricanejack]

side opposite largest fore and aft sail. hmmm?

 

[Uricanejack]

The confusion above is resolved by VicS's partial quoting of the actual rule. The wording actually says:



It's slight double think but it's perfectly possible to be sailing by the lee with the wind on the port side and the main to port and still be on starboard tack. I appreciate that the rule starts by referring to which side the wind is blowing from, but it qualifies thus by then defining that by "which side the main fore and aft sail is positioned". This actually makes sense as it removes any doubt when looking at another boat. You don't have to try and guess which way the wind is blowing across the other boat. You just look to see which side his mainsail is sitting.

I'm going to assume that in the absence of a mainsail the Genoa will provide the answer but it's a discussion point.

All IMHO.

It does specifically mention "Square Rigged"? assuming of course your average yacht is not "Square rigged"

There again "Main Sail" is not defined. "Booms" not mentioned at all.

One might suggest. If you have only one sail it must therefore be the "Main Sail"

If you happen to have 1 mast with 2 sails. Tradition suggests the one at the back with a boom even if is the smaller of the two is the "Main Sail"

If you had a Ketch and a Schooner? They could conceivably have the wind astern in the same place with their sails set in similar order. With their "Main Sails" on opposite sides.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It does specifically mention "Square Rigged"? assuming of course your average yacht is not "Square rigged"

There again "Main Sail" is not defined. "Booms" not mentioned at all.

One might suggest. If you have only one sail it must therefore be the "Main Sail"

If you happen to have 1 mast with 2 sails. Tradition suggests the one at the back with a boom even if is the smaller of the two is the "Main Sail"

If you had a Ketch and a Schooner? They could conceivably have the wind astern in the same place with their sails set in similar order. With their "Main Sails" on opposite sides.

There's only ever one 'mainsail' on a fore and aft rigged boat. Square rigged is only mentioned as a clarification. (The rules say 'if it's square rigged, use the largest fore and aft sail...)

Ketches and schooners are simple: they both have one mainsail and that's the one that counts. On a schooner its the aft big triangular sail on a boom as the aft mast is bigger. On a ketch or yawl it's the big sail on the bigger f'wd mast. The other sail is either a mizzen on a ketch or yawl or on a schooner its on the f'wd mast and is a staysail or fishermans sail etc.

There's only ever one mainsail.

I appreciate that the op didn't have his 'mainsail' set, but most people seem to have agreed that in this exceptional case, you use the sail that is set to determine what tack you are on and whether you are stand on or give way.

I don't understand your problem?

 

[Uricanejack]

There's only ever one 'mainsail' on a fore and aft rigged boat. Square rigged is only mentioned as a clarification. (The rules say 'if it's square rugged, use the largest fire and aft sail...)

Ketches and schooners are simple: they both have one mainsail and that's the one that counts. On a schooner its the aft big triangular sail on a boom as the aft mast is bigger. On a ketch or yawl it's the big sail on the bigger f'wd mast. The other sail is either a mizzen on a ketch or yawl or on a schooner its on the f'wd mast and is a staysail or fishermans sail etc.

There's only ever one mainsail.

I appreciate that the op didn't have his 'mainsail' set, but most people seem to have agreed that in this exceptional case, you use the sail that is set to determine what tack you are on and whether you are stand on or give way.

I don't understand your problem?

No problem just being silly

 

[john_morris_uk]

No problem just being silly

 

[lw395]

May I chuck a log on to this fire and suggest that even though the other boat was the stand on vessel he may have been in a far better position to make a course alteration due to having more steerage. The OP has not expanded on how well he was able to maneuver on his downwind course and may well have been barely moving. His starting off the engine, all be it belated, would suggest just that. Had it been an enginless boat what should have been his action?

To use a line from 'Sod's law of the Sea'...
I suggest sinking where you are, sir.

A boat with a jib poled out and no main visible is much like a boat with a spinnaker and no main visible. It can be of 'indeterminate tack' if its course is close to dead downwind, so a close hauled boat on port should keep clear of it. It will almost always be give way to a closehauled boat on starboard, unless that boat has just tacked or something.

If poling out your genoa prevents you from altering course in line with your obligations, don't do it where there are other boats around.
If your boat is barely moving, that doesn't absolve you of the need to be in control. Sail your boat properly, put more sails up, start the engine, kedge or get the oars out.
You still have to keep clear of tankers and the Bramble Bank.....

 

[RichardS]

May I humbly suggest your post is ambiguous. I've re read it and can see that you and I might be in complete agreement. It's also possible to interpret what you say differently.

No problem John ..... and we are in agreement.

Richard

 

[KREW2]

To use a line from 'Sod's law of the Sea'...
I suggest sinking where you are, sir.

A boat with a jib poled out and no main visible is much like a boat with a spinnaker and no main visible. It can be of 'indeterminate tack' if its course is close to dead downwind, so a close hauled boat on port should keep clear of it. It will almost always be give way to a closehauled boat on starboard, unless that boat has just tacked or something.

If poling out your genoa prevents you from altering course in line with your obligations, don't do it where there are other boats around.
If your boat is barely moving, that doesn't absolve you of the need to be in control. Sail your boat properly, put more sails up, start the engine, kedge or get the oars out.
You still have to keep clear of tankers and the Bramble Bank.....

Assuming he may have been sailing by the lee, the determinating factor for the OP being the give way vessel was that he was windward boat, and he should have known that.
I am not advocating a change in the Col regs but, and this is the bit I don't really understand. Say, in this case the give way boat was flying a spinnaker, and he was dead down wind and poled out to port. What would be his best course of action, assuming light airs