bedouin
Well-Known Member
Surely he just needs to alter course 10 or 20 degrees to port
Who was the give way vessel?
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
If I understand your question correctly, IRPCS have it covered. It suggests that if there is any doubt as to whether the other vessel is give way or stand on (as in you can't see which side the mainsail is on because the spinnaker is in the way) then you give way. Make it a clear and obvious alteration of course and/or speed and all will be fine. Same applies if you think the other person hasn't seen you, or isn't complying with the rules for whatever reason.
jac
Well-Known Member
I'm assuming you mean what should the boat flying the kite do?
If the spinnaker pole is out to port, then she should be on port tack so regardless of what the other boat is doing, she MUST keep clear.
in those circumstances I would suggest luffing up a little rather than gybing. The key seamanlike thing is to make the early alteration of course so that you only need to do a 10 degree alteration - not wait till the last minute then make a 90 degree turn.
( and i'm really pleased to discover that my 5000th post was vaguely sensible and boat related. Shame about the other 4999)
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KREW2
Well-Known Member
Yes, thanks, I realise my question was obviously not clear.
My scenario was the same as the OP's no main, just running dead down wind on the spinnaker. Of course with the other boat on starboard tack his position as give way vessel would still stand, regardless of which side he was poled out.
My confusion was coming from not thinking, it would be easy to alter course to port with a spinnaker by just hardening up. Whereas with the genoa poled out to port it would involve a gybe.
It may take some time but I get there in the end
VicS
Well-Known Member
When you pole out a genoa you should set the pole up on the spinnaker pole uphaul (and foreguy) on the windward side with a spare sheet (eg a spinnaker sheet) running through the end, and across the deck to the genoa clew. Allow the pole to rest gently against the forestay.
Now gybe the genoa, using the additional sheet, onto the pole and adjust as necessary.
You have avoided the balancing act on the deck with the sail or sheet in one hand and the pole in the other while you hang on with ???????
You are now set up so that if necessary the genoa can be sheeted in under the pole with its own sheet or gybed back again without any fore deck antics to remove the pole.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I often add an after guy as well. The pole is braced up in three directions and you gybe the genoa over onto it using a spare sheet on the genoa. Roll some genoa away and you can sail on either tack and leave the pole completely stable and sticking out (but who cares in an emergency?)
flaming
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I do on passage.
syneraida
Well-Known Member
Well put, I fully agree
syneraida
Well-Known Member
Are you implying he was "restricted in his ability to maneuver" ? Because, if you are you have greatly changed the thread.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Luff up a little in good time. Or gybe.
It's normally better to sail say 10degrees above dead downwind with a kite anyway, it's faster. It also means you have some ability to bear away.
RichardS
N/A
Ah yes ..... but do you still agree now that John has changed his mind and agrees with me?
Richard
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Ah yes ..... but do you still agree now that John has changed his mind and agrees with me?
Richard
Ooh err... What do you think I've agreed with now.
RichardS
N/A
OK .... once last time .....
Syneraida believes that "it is not important whether the headsail is poled out or not" in the context of Colregs under headsail alone.
You and I are both in agreement that it is important.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on starboard tack.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is not poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on port tack.
Richard
VicS
Well-Known Member
OK .... once last time .....
Syneraida believes that "it is not important whether the headsail is poled out or not" in the context of Colregs under headsail alone.
You and I are both in agreement that it is important.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on starboard tack.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is not poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on port tack.
Richard
A new edition of the colregs has come into force since I looked at them three days ago then ?????
RichardS
N/A
I'll leave John Morris to deal with it this time ..... I'm Colregs'd out! :ambivalence:
Richard
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
He can read back. And yes we are in agreement!
KREW2
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that
Again I got confused wondering how the pole was transferred from port to starboard to effect a gybe. It's never easy to put into words how to rig something so the uninitiated can understand.
I googled found this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II589dqAzLo and it clarified it for me.
As is mentioned in the video, poleing out the genoa using the jib sheet can lead to problems, as in having to gybe to take avoiding action.
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syneraida
Well-Known Member
OK .... once last time .....
Syneraida believes that "it is not important whether the headsail is poled out or not" in the context of Colregs under headsail alone.
You and I are both in agreement that it is important.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on starboard tack.
If the wind is blowing over the port quarter and the headsail is not poled out to port, then for Colregs purposes one should assume that the boat is on port tack.
Richard
The important bit for me is that COLREGS states.....
"For the purpose of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the
mainsail is carried"
It does not mention the angle of the wind or a pole, it considers the side the sail is set and states that the windward side shall be deemed to be the opposite side.
If by some miracle you could "make way" with the mainsail set and carried on the stbd side and the wind on the stbd beam the colregs would still consider the port side of the boat to be the windward side, pole or no pole.
Simply put:
1) If the sail is on the port side, then the windward side is the stbd side.
2) If the sail is on the Stbd side, then the windward side is the port side.
Am I missing something?
lw395
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are missing that a poled out jib is not a fore and aft sail.
They are frequently poled out to the windward side.
A poled out spinnaker is generally on the windward side.
A poled out gennaker likewise.
A yacht with just a jib poled out is a bit like a cat with a symetric kite flown from both bows, it is of indeterminate tack if the wind is near astern.
IF you see a yacht with its jib poled out on the starboard side, by your rule you would assume it is on port.
However, it could have a reefed main hidden behind the jib, making it absolutely on starboard.
IMHO, any yacht you see with its genoa poled out going roughly dead down wind, I will give it the benefit of the doubt and keep clear if I'm on port.
(in practice I'd tend to keep clear anyway, as many yachts that sail around with jibs poled out are a shambles if forced to alter course and there is usually no upside in being close to them). Also if I'm beating or reaching I can very safely alter course quite late, having plenty of manoeuvrability etc. Not stupid late, just later than a boat with triply-guyed jibsticks to wrestle with
There are several definitions of mainsail, the useful one here is 'sail carried on the aft edge of the mainmast of a fore and aft rig vessel'.
Leaving the main in the stack pack does not make any other sail the mainsail.
Having an IOR boat with a genoa twice the area of the main does not make the biggest sail the mainsail.
Is the bit in colregs about 'largest fore and aft sail' solely applicable to square rig? Where the mainsail is often a square sail.
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
Without reaching to my bookshelf to check, the form of words as quoted by ?VicS earlier in the thread would suggest so. The rules seem to carry definitions based on 'mainsails' (of any craft) and fore-and-aft sails (specifically of square riggers). There are of course many craft which can fly something completely different. Personally I think the spirit of the rules is straightforward but the semantics seem to have caused great confusion.