PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Although we talk of tack, Rule 12 doesn't.
So technically it surely doesn't matter which side he has the Genny poled out ?
Who was the give way vessel?
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Although we talk of tack, Rule 12 doesn't.
So technically it surely doesn't matter which side he has the Genny poled out ?
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
The seaman like answer is to imagine yourself in the place of the skipper of the other vessel. All he can see is the Genoa poled out to port and there would be no way he can tell you have port side wind. So it would be reasonable for him to conclude that you are on starboard and to act accordingly. I would be pretty sure any court investigating an incident resulting from something like this would agree with his interpretation too.
RichardS
N/A
Indeed, it is perfectly possible to have the headsail poled well out on the Port side but still be the give way Port-tack boat. Possibly a double-whammy for the OP!
Richard
VicS
Well-Known Member
Dont know how it works but certain that the edit was not in place when I read the post... nor were any of the other replies!
Worth noting , perhaps, that nowhere in Rule 12 is the word "tack" used. They only refer to the wind being on one side of the vessel or the other although this is deemed to be the opposite side to that on which the main is carried.
I think if you read the rule you will realise that the orientation of the head sail, or the pole, doesn't come into it.
If the other vessel had been on port tack 12(a) (iii) might have applied , but it wasn't.
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alant
Well-Known Member
Not if windward.
RichardS
N/A
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
The OP mentions the wind directly astern, so likely fluking from side to side. Lets assume the approaching yacht was on the wind on port tack. At some point the OP's boat would be sailing by the lee with the wind on his port and therefore give way vessel, then a few seconds later he would be on stbd and hence one could suggest now stand on, but a vessel cannot place himself as stand on once a situation has already developed by virtue of his own manoeuvre, because the second and leeward vessel would already be obliged to stand on unless unsafe so to do when he becomes obliged to make what ever manoeuvre is necessary to avoid a collision.
This is where common sense and good seamanship matters, as the sensible manoeuvre would be for the windward yacht to make a clear turn to stbd as this would not upset his poled out headsail, and the approaching windward vessel would be left in no doubt as to the manoeuvre made to stand clear of him. This is where the early and in good time part of the Col regs comes into play.
The other situation that I find annoying is where you are passing in clear water another vessel, but perhaps port to port, when suddenly the skipper of the other boat decides he must pass you to stbd and makes a violent manoeuvre across your bow - do not create a potential collision avoidance situation when one did not already exist.
This is where common sense and good seamanship matters, as the sensible manoeuvre would be for the windward yacht to make a clear turn to stbd as this would not upset his poled out headsail, and the approaching windward vessel would be left in no doubt as to the manoeuvre made to stand clear of him. This is where the early and in good time part of the Col regs comes into play.
The other situation that I find annoying is where you are passing in clear water another vessel, but perhaps port to port, when suddenly the skipper of the other boat decides he must pass you to stbd and makes a violent manoeuvre across your bow - do not create a potential collision avoidance situation when one did not already exist.
VicS
Well-Known Member
That would indeed be more than very annoying. I suspect, however, you have your P& S muddled up
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pmagowan
Well-Known Member
It sounds like three or four potential errors.
1) the op failed to identify the other boat as stand on due to the op being windward
2) given the op had decided to be stand in vessel it sounds like he failed to take action early enough so that it was a bit of a close thing. Even the stand on must take timely action if it becomes obvious the other vessel has failed to do so.
3) the other vessel failed to take action as stand on as per 2.
4) and this one is more etiquette rather than colregs, in general it is possible to avoid, through minor adjustments, either boat entering a collision course such that colregs must be applied especially where someone is poled out and it is quite inconvenient to tack. Of course this must be done in such a way as to prevent the colregs coming into effect as once they do the responsibilities of each party are clear.
In the end, no harm done and probably a good learning experience for both vessels. It is easy to make an error in the heat of the moment which is why these discussions are good to make you think.
1) the op failed to identify the other boat as stand on due to the op being windward
2) given the op had decided to be stand in vessel it sounds like he failed to take action early enough so that it was a bit of a close thing. Even the stand on must take timely action if it becomes obvious the other vessel has failed to do so.
3) the other vessel failed to take action as stand on as per 2.
4) and this one is more etiquette rather than colregs, in general it is possible to avoid, through minor adjustments, either boat entering a collision course such that colregs must be applied especially where someone is poled out and it is quite inconvenient to tack. Of course this must be done in such a way as to prevent the colregs coming into effect as once they do the responsibilities of each party are clear.
In the end, no harm done and probably a good learning experience for both vessels. It is easy to make an error in the heat of the moment which is why these discussions are good to make you think.
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BobnLesley
Well-Known Member
Been there done that, it's a weird feeling; we once sailed north through Marmaris Bay entrance - only blowing F1/2 - on a port tack and crossed tracks with a yacht coming south who was on port tack too; what completely amazed me was that we managed to achieve this whilst notionally at least, passing upwind of each other.
Regarding the original post, the OP was definitely not stand-on vessel, though I'd like to think that if it'd been me coming the other way, I would've realised what a bugger it could be for him to alter course and so altered my own slightly and early to make priority a moot point. It's good to have the rules, we all need to know/apply them, but they're only applicable when 'a risk of collision exists'; they're written in the main so that the vessel that can more easily manuovre is the one obliged to do so, the major exception being the port/starboard tack between sailing vessels, but being on starboard-tack does not mean you have to keep barreling on: Regularly on our travels we've been comfortably broad reaching on a starboard-tack, seen another yacht close-hauled on port tack on or near a collision course and simply hardened up a bit, doing it early to make it clear we'll give him the room he needs; for us it's a tweak on the wheel and a bit of a curve in the track, whereas bearing away for them might mean failing to clear the next headland on this or even the next tack.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Quite so. At last some sense.....:encouragement:
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, that's good seamanship :encouragement:
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
What ???
VicS
Well-Known Member
I assumed you meant to say "passing in clear water another vessel, but perhaps stbd to stbd, when suddenly the skipper of the other boat decides he must pass you to port and makes a violent manoeuvre across your bow."
That would be unnecessary and annoying What you actually described is just plain crazy.
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
it does get confusing![70521]
Well-Known Member
Why did you leave it that late. It is both skippers responsibility not to collide, a 2 degree change from course 5 mins prior to you starting your engine would have saved the loss of so many electrons posting here.
KREW2
Well-Known Member
I sometimes struggle to get my head round these written scenarios.
So! I am assuming he is sailing close hauled across your bows on starboard.
As windward boat you need to turn to port, but in order to do so you need to gybe the genoa.
Please tell me what I don't understand.
So! I am assuming he is sailing close hauled across your bows on starboard.
As windward boat you need to turn to port, but in order to do so you need to gybe the genoa.
Please tell me what I don't understand.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Why the OP thought he was the stand on vessel .............. but since he has explained that I don't understand why you don't understand
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
That sentence took some effort!
William_H
Well-Known Member
I understand that with laser sailing (and we are talking mainsail) that a boat can have main out on port or starboard side regardless of side the wind is coming from (when running) and that the give way rule (in yacht racing rules) relates to the side the sail is on. Not the wind direction. Is this a conflict with Col regs or have i got it wrong? olewill