Who said this aabout modern yacht designs?

[rotrax]

Does it make me smile? Isn’t that what everyone wants? To smile on their boats?

I smile every time I see mine from a distance - in my eyes she is almost perfect, the best compromise FOR OUR NEEDS we could afford.

Note the word compromise - IMHO most boats are.

In a past life, when my race bike was prepared for a big race, hot to trot, just like Frank Williams and his F1 cars, I would look at it and feel great.

Tomorrow I'm going to give that a right bollocking..................................

There is no doubt in my mind that modern lightweight boats are affected far more by an excess of weight when loaded than some more traditional types.

Felt the effects when sailing with a friend on his cruiser racer - a Malo - when fully loaded for a long passage.

 

[Skylark]

It is hardly the ‘North face of the Eiger’ is true. I dont find that offensive and I have done that trip a couple of times. Its a pretty straight forward trip. It looks to me like you are a bit miffed.

Not at all. I know quite a lot of people who either have or aspire to do something like the ARC, in both AWBs and MABs. To them it represents a lifetime achievement and I find such derogatory comments childish, indicative that the poster is loosing the arguments so reverting to insults.

You seem a little upset in your reply to my post. I dont think your boat is unsafe cruising around the coast I just wouldn't want it if I was crossing the atlantic from West to East.

Not at all. You actually said that my boat was dangerous so I said that, as you claim to be an engineer, the comment was unprofessional.

I teach Shorebased and Practical courses so I meet a lot of people with very different sailing aspirations. I encourage everyone to follow their dreams, good look to them. There’s plenty of room for all on the water. As several posters have already commented, if it makes you smile, it’s right for you.?

Happy sailing?

Many thanks, to you, too ?

 

[geem]

Not at all. I know quite a lot of people who either have or aspire to do something like the ARC, in both AWBs and MABs. To them it represents a lifetime achievement and I find such derogatory comments childish, indicative that the poster is loosing the arguments so reverting to insults.
QUOTE

Well you wont want my view on the ARC either then! It might be some peoples life goal to cross the Atlantic but they choose to do it with an organisation holding their hand. Not the way I would ever want to do it. With generally following wind and seas and a following current it couldnt be any easier. There are usually times when its a little more testing but it really is an easy crossing. If you want a challenge then cross the other way. The comment isn't derogatory, its fact. There is no easier ocean crossing than this one. Its not called the Milk Run for nothing. There is nothing childish about the comment. In fact Trevor Robertson of Iron Bark told me the Atlantic wasnt really an ocean it was too small! I laughed at that one

 

[Skylark]

You’re right there ? I don’t want your view of the ARC. Not everyone has your level of skill, expertise, knowledge, wisdom, seamanship etc etc. It’s a fantastic achievement for many so why belittle it. Try opening your mind?

(I’ve not done it, by the way ?).

 

[dom]

There is nothing childish about the comment. In fact Trevor Robertson of Iron Bark told me the Atlantic wasnt really an ocean it was too small! I laughed at that one

Ahh, I see what happened; it’s called the pond but isn’t really a pond. A bit like the Bay of Biscay isn’t really a bay. Funny world.

Back in the real world, The Atlantic is of course the world’s second largest ocean. And yes, it can get very, very rough - North and South. So rough that even the top modern racing boats will route around big storms. Faster too

 

[geem]

You’re right there ? I don’t want your view of the ARC. Not everyone has your level of skill, expertise, knowledge, wisdom, seamanship etc etc. It’s a fantastic achievement for many so why belittle it. Try opening your mind?

(I’ve not done it, by the way ?).

I think you are a little uptight, breathe in.........breathe out..........

 

[Achosenman]

A shame this has descended into a slanging match. Up to this point it was interesting.

 

[Resolution]

The comment about the North face of the Eiger made me think about Skip Novak, his Pelagic sailing and the new yacht currently under construction.
Pelagic Yachts 72

 

[Laminar Flow]

A shame this has descended into a slanging match. Up to this point it was interesting.

I agree, it has turned into a slagging match.

Perhaps the merits of different ocean passages could be a theme for a different thread.

I'm always astounded by people with strongly held opinions on subject matters they have no personal experience of; be that on ocean sailing or seaworthiness in harsh conditions, such as the poster on another thread who recommends surfing down waves in survival conditions because he has watched some video that may or may not have had any relevance on the subject.
Lying awake at night, hove to in a storm, with waves crashing over the boat, you, clinging on to your bunk, praying the damn thing hold together, tends to modify many of the previously held beliefs attained from books or videos, read or viewed in the safety of your home.

On sailing across the Atlantic East to West. Any reasonably well-found boat can do that crossing.
There is plenty of romantic and adventurous myth attached to the idea of sailing across "the Atlantic". The ARC capitalizes on that appeal and on overcoming the fear of simply casting off your lines to head west. It is a business, after all.
I used to joke that the greatest risk on the crossing was, that in the exceedingly unlikely event of your boat sinking, to be run over by another yacht in your life raft.

 

[geem]

I agree, it has turned into a slagging match.

Perhaps the merits of different ocean passages could be a theme for a different thread.

I'm always astounded by people with strongly held opinions on subject matters they have no personal experience of; be that on ocean sailing or seaworthiness in harsh conditions, such as the poster on another thread who recommends surfing down waves in survival conditions because he has watched some video that may or may not have had any relevance on the subject.
Lying awake at night, hove to in a storm, with waves crashing over the boat, you, clinging on to your bunk, praying the damn thing hold together, tends to modify many of the previously held beliefs attained from books or videos, read or viewed in the safety of your home.

On sailing across the Atlantic East to West. Any reasonably well-found boat can do that crossing.
There is plenty of romantic and adventurous myth attached to the idea of sailing across "the Atlantic". The ARC capitalizes on that appeal and on overcoming the fear of simply casting off your lines to head west. It is a business, after all.
I used to joke that the greatest risk on the crossing was, that in the exceedingly unlikely event of your boat sinking, to be run over by another yacht in your life raft.

Its a shame these things spiral downwards. There has been a lot of useful debate by people on here with good experience to bring to the table. Its been fun for me researching information from yacht designers and naval architects. Its interesting that both, myself and others can find good academic information from well respected sources to support our arguments And then there are thos that bring little to the table.

 

[rotrax]

I find all this 'best boat' stuff pretty pointless.

As I think is clear, boats are a compromise. This compromise is compounded by many things, often the purchasing budget a major one, followed by family/sailing partners preference/requirements.

The latter figured in the purchase of our current vessel - easy on/off from the swim platform.

For us, in our 70's and with physical problems it will keep us sailing for a few years longer than having an aft cockpit yacht with a high freeboard.

I am minded of Jay Leno's reply to the question of his favourite motorcycle. He is a major league petrol head with a large and important collection.

His reply was simple - " It is the one I am riding when asked that question! "

Ergo, all motorcycles are good!

As are, IMHO, boats, especially sailing boats.

And if they make you smile, so much the better.

 

[Concerto]

I agree that people buy boats that meet their personal requirements, but their choices are frequently made by non sailing characteristics like the galley, heads or cabin layout. Once you have experienced very rough weather a number times, you learn what is important about how a boat handles in these conditions. Like many other owners I try to avoid going sailing in high winds e.g. force 8+. I still sail in winds to force 7, but I cannot say they are true open water. In my racing time I have sailed several times in force 10 and 11. Having sailed in all sea areas between northern Holland and St Malo, these are really only coastal waters, the wave height and frequency are completely different to open ocean conditions.

When I sailed in a force 6 to 7 beat going the the Isles of Scilly a few years ago, I experienced some of the Atlantic rollers and they were totally different to say a Thames chop in similar wind conditions. However these waves were nothing like the time a crossed the Atlantic on the QE2 steaming straight into a force 9. To say these were huge is an understatement, the bow was going through a number of the waves, even they had throttled back from the normal cruising speed. The movement was quite violent with lots of crockery and glasses getting smashed, the grand piano kept moving across the ballroom, and very few passengers were seen out of their cabins, let alone eating with me. These were true ocean conditions and I certainly feel most modern yachts would not be a place I would want to be on in these conditions. To be honest I doubt if I would like to have been on my own boat either.

When you consider the RCD categories, and most modern cruising yachts are rated class A.

• Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.
• Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.
• Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.
• Category D – Inland or sheltered coastal waters: is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

What CE Certification means for Boat Buyers | Beneteau
It is my opinion these categories are not stiff enough.

Also the builder self certificates the RCD Category, not some independent organisation.
"The manufacturer has ultimate responsibility for the conformity of the product to the Directive, whether he designed and manufactured the product himself or is considered as a manufacturer because the product is placed on the market under his name or trademark. "
https://www.europeanboatingindustry.eu/images/News/RCD-Application-Guide-June-2018.pdf page 31.

Looking at the following RCD section, you will see that stability is is only a minor consideration. This easy to understand list is quoted from Marine Surveyor | SG Survey | Cargo Surveys | New Build | Compliance. The rest of the web site is worth reading to see how minor this consideration really is.

3 Integrity And Structural Requirements

3.1. Structure
The choice and combination of materials and its construction shall ensure that the craft is strong enough in all respects. Special attention shall be paid to the design category according to section 1 (note: Watercraft Design Categories A to D) , and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load in accordance with section 3.6.

3.2. Stability and freeboard
The craft shall have sufficient stability and freeboard considering its design category according to section 1 and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6.

3.3. Buoyancy and flotation
The watercraft shall be constructed to ensure that it has buoyancy characteristics appropriate to its design category, and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6. All habitable multihull craft shall be so designed as to have sufficient buoyancy to remain afloat in the inverted position.
Watercraft of less than six metres in length that are susceptible to swamping when used in their design category shall be provided with appropriate means of flotation in the swamped condition.

3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure
Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed.
Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position, as well as point loads applied by the weight of persons moving on deck.
Through hull fittings designed to allow water passage into the hull or out of the hull, below the waterline corresponding to the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6, shall be fitted with shutoff means which shall be readily accessible.

3.5. Flooding
All watercraft shall be designed so as to minimize the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:

• Cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat.
• Interior.
• Ventilation fittings.
• Removal of water by pumps or other means.

3.6. Manufacturer’s maximum recommended load
The manufacturer’s maximum recommended load (fuel, water, provisions, miscellaneous equipment and people (in kg)) for which the boat was designed shall be determined according to the design category, stability and freeboard (section 3.2) and buoyancy and flotation (section 3.3).

3.7. Liferaft stowage
All craft of categories A and B, and craft of categories C and D longer than six metres shall be provided with one or more stowage points for a liferaft(s) large enough to hold the number of persons the boat was designed to carry as recommended by the manufacturer. Life raft stowage point(s) shall be readily accessible at all times.

3.8. Escape
All habitable multihull recreational craft susceptible of inversion shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion. Where there is a means of escape provided for use in the inverted position, it shall not compromise the structure (point 3.1), the stability (point 3.2) or buoyancy (point 3.3) whether the recreational craft is upright or inverted.
Every habitable recreational craft shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of fire.

So overall I feel the RDC is far from perfect and should only be refered to as a guide for people with little sailing experience.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I agree that people buy boats that meet their personal requirements, but their choices are frequently made by non sailing characteristics like the galley, heads or cabin layout. Once you have experienced very rough weather a number times, you learn what is important about how a boat handles in these conditions. Like many other owners I try to avoid going sailing in high winds e.g. force 8+. I still sail in winds to force 7, but I cannot say they are true open water. In my racing time I have sailed several times in force 10 and 11. Having sailed in all sea areas between northern Holland and St Malo, these are really only coastal waters, the wave height and frequency are completely different to open ocean conditions.

When I sailed in a force 6 to 7 beat going the the Isles of Scilly a few years ago, I experienced some of the Atlantic rollers and they were totally different to say a Thames chop in similar wind conditions. However these waves were nothing like the time a crossed the Atlantic on the QE2 steaming straight into a force 9. To say these were huge is an understatement, the bow was going through a number of the waves, even they had throttled back from the normal cruising speed. The movement was quite violent with lots of crockery and glasses getting smashed, the grand piano kept moving across the ballroom, and very few passengers were seen out of their cabins, let alone eating with me. These were true ocean conditions and I certainly feel most modern yachts would not be a place I would want to be on in these conditions. To be honest I doubt if I would like to have been on my own boat either.

When you consider the RCD categories, and most modern cruising yachts are rated class A.

• Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.
• Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.
• Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.
• Category D – Inland or sheltered coastal waters: is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

What CE Certification means for Boat Buyers | Beneteau
It is my opinion these categories are not stiff enough.

Also the builder self certificates the RCD Category, not some independent organisation.
"The manufacturer has ultimate responsibility for the conformity of the product to the Directive, whether he designed and manufactured the product himself or is considered as a manufacturer because the product is placed on the market under his name or trademark. "
https://www.europeanboatingindustry.eu/images/News/RCD-Application-Guide-June-2018.pdf page 31.

Looking at the following RCD section, you will see that stability is is only a minor consideration. This easy to understand list is quoted from Marine Surveyor | SG Survey | Cargo Surveys | New Build | Compliance. The rest of the web site is worth reading to see how minor this consideration really is.

3 Integrity And Structural Requirements

3.1. Structure
The choice and combination of materials and its construction shall ensure that the craft is strong enough in all respects. Special attention shall be paid to the design category according to section 1 (note: Watercraft Design Categories A to D) , and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load in accordance with section 3.6.

3.2. Stability and freeboard
The craft shall have sufficient stability and freeboard considering its design category according to section 1 and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6.

3.3. Buoyancy and flotation
The watercraft shall be constructed to ensure that it has buoyancy characteristics appropriate to its design category, and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6. All habitable multihull craft shall be so designed as to have sufficient buoyancy to remain afloat in the inverted position.
Watercraft of less than six metres in length that are susceptible to swamping when used in their design category shall be provided with appropriate means of flotation in the swamped condition.

3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure
Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed.
Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position, as well as point loads applied by the weight of persons moving on deck.
Through hull fittings designed to allow water passage into the hull or out of the hull, below the waterline corresponding to the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6, shall be fitted with shutoff means which shall be readily accessible.

3.5. Flooding
All watercraft shall be designed so as to minimize the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:

• Cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat.
• Interior.
• Ventilation fittings.
• Removal of water by pumps or other means.

3.6. Manufacturer’s maximum recommended load
The manufacturer’s maximum recommended load (fuel, water, provisions, miscellaneous equipment and people (in kg)) for which the boat was designed shall be determined according to the design category, stability and freeboard (section 3.2) and buoyancy and flotation (section 3.3).

3.7. Liferaft stowage
All craft of categories A and B, and craft of categories C and D longer than six metres shall be provided with one or more stowage points for a liferaft(s) large enough to hold the number of persons the boat was designed to carry as recommended by the manufacturer. Life raft stowage point(s) shall be readily accessible at all times.

3.8. Escape
All habitable multihull recreational craft susceptible of inversion shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion. Where there is a means of escape provided for use in the inverted position, it shall not compromise the structure (point 3.1), the stability (point 3.2) or buoyancy (point 3.3) whether the recreational craft is upright or inverted.
Every habitable recreational craft shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of fire.

So overall I feel the RDC is far from perfect and should only be refered to as a guide for people with little sailing experience.

Thank you, Concerto, excellent post.

On "Boat Design.net" there is a very interesting thread started by a naval architect regarding STIX numbers for stability. Much of it is based on the Eliasson article posted earlier by Geem. Part of the discussion is about the lack of true data and also the intentional misuse of of certification categories in the marketing of boats.

Even if some people may have found this thread uncomfortable, I have very much enjoyed the exchange of valuable information.

Considering that it all started with whether a good racing design makes a good cruiser, over whether contemporary designs are any faster, boat for boat, in real life cruising trim than their more traditional brethren, to questions of seaworthiness.

As Rotax has said; The choice of boat comes down to personal needs: Do you need speed, seaworthiness, comfort, and here: comfort at sea or comfort in port. It is not the same; just to note: the athwart-ship double bunk. Sleeping at sea; do you do the yogi, standing on your head, or the night watchman, standing up? In truth you can't have it all, not in the smaller and more affordable range of craft.

On speed: It would be much better if boat test speeds were not given in absolute speeds, but in relative speeds. Boats in general have been getting bigger over the years and absolute speeds can be misleading.
I saw a German test video on the new HR 40 ( nice boat by the way). They showed her doing 8kts on a beam reach in 20kts of wind. Impressive right, or is it? That is a relative speed of 1.265, you see.
My tub (see avatar) will do 7.2 kts in 18kts of wind or 1.356 relative on a beam reach. That is, relatively speaking, a better performance.
True, the HR would kick our a*** in actual boat speed any day and certainly (and relatively) to windward.
My point is: that as far as relative speeds go, nothing much has changed in cruising applications. Volume has gone up together with beam, but at a price.
The Pogo style 40's average 6.5 kts in long distance racing; an average relative speed of 1.1. This is not much faster than speeds by, say, Bolero (0.99), racing in the 50's. There is no doubt in my mind which boat would be more comfortable.

 

[rotrax]

I agree that people buy boats that meet their personal requirements, but their choices are frequently made by non sailing characteristics like the galley, heads or cabin layout. Once you have experienced very rough weather a number times, you learn what is important about how a boat handles in these conditions. Like many other owners I try to avoid going sailing in high winds e.g. force 8+. I still sail in winds to force 7, but I cannot say they are true open water. In my racing time I have sailed several times in force 10 and 11. Having sailed in all sea areas between northern Holland and St Malo, these are really only coastal waters, the wave height and frequency are completely different to open ocean conditions.

When I sailed in a force 6 to 7 beat going the the Isles of Scilly a few years ago, I experienced some of the Atlantic rollers and they were totally different to say a Thames chop in similar wind conditions. However these waves were nothing like the time a crossed the Atlantic on the QE2 steaming straight into a force 9. To say these were huge is an understatement, the bow was going through a number of the waves, even they had throttled back from the normal cruising speed. The movement was quite violent with lots of crockery and glasses getting smashed, the grand piano kept moving across the ballroom, and very few passengers were seen out of their cabins, let alone eating with me. These were true ocean conditions and I certainly feel most modern yachts would not be a place I would want to be on in these conditions. To be honest I doubt if I would like to have been on my own boat either.

When you consider the RCD categories, and most modern cruising yachts are rated class A.

• Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.
• Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.
• Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.
• Category D – Inland or sheltered coastal waters: is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

What CE Certification means for Boat Buyers | Beneteau
It is my opinion these categories are not stiff enough.

Also the builder self certificates the RCD Category, not some independent organisation.
"The manufacturer has ultimate responsibility for the conformity of the product to the Directive, whether he designed and manufactured the product himself or is considered as a manufacturer because the product is placed on the market under his name or trademark. "
https://www.europeanboatingindustry.eu/images/News/RCD-Application-Guide-June-2018.pdf page 31.

Looking at the following RCD section, you will see that stability is is only a minor consideration. This easy to understand list is quoted from Marine Surveyor | SG Survey | Cargo Surveys | New Build | Compliance. The rest of the web site is worth reading to see how minor this consideration really is.

3 Integrity And Structural Requirements

3.1. Structure
The choice and combination of materials and its construction shall ensure that the craft is strong enough in all respects. Special attention shall be paid to the design category according to section 1 (note: Watercraft Design Categories A to D) , and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load in accordance with section 3.6.

3.2. Stability and freeboard
The craft shall have sufficient stability and freeboard considering its design category according to section 1 and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6.

3.3. Buoyancy and flotation
The watercraft shall be constructed to ensure that it has buoyancy characteristics appropriate to its design category, and the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6. All habitable multihull craft shall be so designed as to have sufficient buoyancy to remain afloat in the inverted position.
Watercraft of less than six metres in length that are susceptible to swamping when used in their design category shall be provided with appropriate means of flotation in the swamped condition.

3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure
Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed.
Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position, as well as point loads applied by the weight of persons moving on deck.
Through hull fittings designed to allow water passage into the hull or out of the hull, below the waterline corresponding to the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load according to section 3.6, shall be fitted with shutoff means which shall be readily accessible.

3.5. Flooding
All watercraft shall be designed so as to minimize the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:

• Cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat.
• Interior.
• Ventilation fittings.
• Removal of water by pumps or other means.

3.6. Manufacturer’s maximum recommended load
The manufacturer’s maximum recommended load (fuel, water, provisions, miscellaneous equipment and people (in kg)) for which the boat was designed shall be determined according to the design category, stability and freeboard (section 3.2) and buoyancy and flotation (section 3.3).

3.7. Liferaft stowage
All craft of categories A and B, and craft of categories C and D longer than six metres shall be provided with one or more stowage points for a liferaft(s) large enough to hold the number of persons the boat was designed to carry as recommended by the manufacturer. Life raft stowage point(s) shall be readily accessible at all times.

3.8. Escape
All habitable multihull recreational craft susceptible of inversion shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion. Where there is a means of escape provided for use in the inverted position, it shall not compromise the structure (point 3.1), the stability (point 3.2) or buoyancy (point 3.3) whether the recreational craft is upright or inverted.
Every habitable recreational craft shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of fire.

So overall I feel the RDC is far from perfect and should only be refered to as a guide for people with little sailing experience.

Very interesting, and, of course, well known by most who do a fair bit of sailing and keep abreast of developments and news.

Our boat is RCD cat A. I would have purchased it had it been a cat. B.

As I said earlier, all boats are a compromise. If I was 30 again and with wanderlust crossing oceans/circumnavigation might be on the cards, a vessel would be chosen to do it with the best comfort and chance of survival.

But at my age and having had far more adventure and excitement in my life than most, bimbling around in a fat 'ole Motorsailer suits me fine.

One comment - if 3.7 is correct, how come most liferafts are clipped on the rail or strapped in a cradle on deck?

My vessel has no designated liferaft stowage, but there is absolutely no problem in fitting one within the fabric of the vessel.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Very interesting, and, of course, well known by most who do a fair bit of sailing and keep abreast of developments and news.

Our boat is RCD cat A. I would have purchased it had it been a cat. B.

As I said earlier, all boats are a compromise. If I was 30 again and with wanderlust crossing oceans/circumnavigation might be on the cards, a vessel would be chosen to do it with the best comfort and chance of survival.

But at my age and having had far more adventure and excitement in my life than most, bimbling around in a fat 'ole Motorsailer suits me fine.

One comment - if 3.7 is correct, how come most liferafts are clipped on the rail or strapped in a cradle on deck?

My vessel has no designated liferaft stowage, but there is absolutely no problem in fitting one within the fabric of the vessel.

No designated life raft storage? Does that bring you down to a B+?

 

[rotrax]

No designated life raft storage? Does that bring you down to a B+?

Not only is it RCD cat A, it has the best USA conformity for leisure vessels.

Perhaps that should bring it down to C- !

 

[Laminar Flow]

Not only is it RCD cat A, it has the best USA conformity for leisure vessels.

Perhaps that should bring it down to C- !

Gets worse by the minute!

 

[flaming]

Felt the effects when sailing with a friend on his cruiser racer - a Malo - when fully loaded for a long passage.

We're talking very cross purposes if you're calling a Malo a cruiser racer...

 

[flaming]

Just to correct a couple of things here.

Considering that it all started with whether a good racing design makes a good cruiser, over whether contemporary designs are any faster, boat for boat, in real life cruising trim than their more traditional brethren, to questions of seaworthiness.

No, it didn't. It started with whether a racing Designer was a better person to be drawing cruising boats. It's drifted all sorts of places, but the original quote was about designers, not designs.

On speed: It would be much better if boat test speeds were not given in absolute speeds, but in relative speeds. Boats in general have been getting bigger over the years and absolute speeds can be misleading.
I saw a German test video on the new HR 40 ( nice boat by the way). They showed her doing 8kts on a beam reach in 20kts of wind. Impressive right, or is it? That is a relative speed of 1.265, you see.
My tub (see avatar) will do 7.2 kts in 18kts of wind or 1.356 relative on a beam reach. That is, relatively speaking, a better performance.
True, the HR would kick our a*** in actual boat speed any day and certainly (and relatively) to windward.

Relative is basically meaningless unless you are going to apply it as some sort of handicap to decide who the better crew was... Is the new boat of the same size faster or slower?

My point is: that as far as relative speeds go, nothing much has changed in cruising applications. Volume has gone up together with beam, but at a price.
The Pogo style 40's average 6.5 kts in long distance racing; an average relative speed of 1.1. This is not much faster than speeds by, say, Bolero (0.99), racing in the 50's. There is no doubt in my mind which boat would be more comfortable.

Absolute nonsense. 6.5kts in long distance racing for Pogo type boats? Where did you get that? Complete and utter rubbish. For evidence...

That's a 308 mile race that they did that year in 30 hours. Average over 10 knots.

And here's another one. a 1250 did the 2015 Transatlantic race from Newport to Cowes. They did the 2800 mile course in just over 13 days. Average speed about 9 knots. Not at all bad considering that year also had some pretty light patches....

In cruising mode they obviously wouldn't push as hard. But to deny the speed potential of the boat for offwind passage making is total rubbish.

 

[rotrax]

We're talking very cross purposes if you're calling a Malo a cruiser racer...

You must excuse my lack of knowledge about yacht racing. After spending most of my life racing motorbikes I have lost interest in any kind of racing.

It was the boat he cruised in with the family every summer, took most of the gear out and emptied the tanks and entered his clubs regular races with his mates at the weekends.

I will admit he was not very successful - whether it was the boat or him we shall never know. But it was clear that when loaded with all the cruising gear plus fuel and water he was disappointed with its performance from what he said while I was on board. I suspect it was purely subjective, not accurately measured.

FYI, the Evans Bay club here in Wellington has a regular Saturday afternoon race for cruisers. Proper cruisers - lightweight racers are not allowed to enter. Very popular, usually about 15 taking part, even Bob in his 32 foot steel gaff rigged cutter with a particularly small rig - he often races single handed.

The keen ones do leave their anchors at home and empty the water tanks.........................